Wow....what does this court ruling mean for our friends?

[DuckiesDarling]

http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/americas/3951316/Firefighters-transgender-widow-fights-for-estate



The family of a Texas firefighter killed in a July 4 blaze has sued to void his marriage to his transgender widow and prevent her from getting his death benefits because she was born a man and Texas doesn't recognise same-sex marriages.

The attorney for the mother of Thomas Araguz III said that the firefighter only learned of his wife's gender history and after he found out, he moved out of their home and planned to end the marriage.

But a tearful Nikki Araguz said her marriage was not a fraud.

"I'm absolutely devastated about the loss of my husband. I'm horrified at the horrendous allegations accusing me of fraud. They are absolutely not true," Araguz, 35, told reporters during a brief statement at a news conference in Houston.

Thomas Araguz died while battling a blaze at an egg farm in Boling, southwest of Houston.

The 11-year veteran of the Wharton Volunteer Fire Department was trapped by falling debris in a burning production building.

In a lawsuit filed July 12 in Wharton County, his mother, Simona Longoria, asked to be appointed administrator of her son's estate and that her son's marriage to Nikki Araguz be voided because the couple were members of the same sex.

According to court documents included as part of the lawsuit, Nikki Araguz was born Justin Graham Purdue and changed her name to Nikki Paige Purdue in February 1996.

Voiding the marriage would prevent Araguz from receiving any insurance or death benefits or property the couple had, with these things only going to her husband's heirs, said Chad Ellis, Longoria's attorney.

A Friday court hearing (local time) is planned to determine whether to extend a temporary restraining order granted Longoria that prevents Araguz from receiving insurance or death benefits or having access to bank accounts or property the couple had.

"Nikki is attempting to make a huge money grab," Ellis said.

But Darrell Steidley, one of Araguz's attorneys, said Thomas Araguz was aware his wife had been born a man and that the couple still was living together at the time of his death. The couple had been married for nearly two years.

"We're going to assert her rights as a spouse of a fallen firefighter," Steidley said.

Ellis said his client's efforts to void the marriage are supported by Texas law, specifically a 1999 appeals court ruling that stated chromosomes, not genitals, determine gender.

Ad Feedback The ruling upheld a lower court's decision that threw out a wrongful death lawsuit filed by a San Antonio woman, Christie Lee Cavazos Littleton, after her husband's death.

The court said that although Littleton had undergone a sex-change operation, she was actually a man, based on her original birth certificate, and therefore her marriage, as well as her wrongful death claim, was invalid.

"The law is clear, you are what you are born as," Ellis said.

While Phyllis Frye, one of Nikki Araguz's attorneys, declined to comment on what role the 1999 appellate ruling will play in her client's case, she said the decision "wrecked a lot of lives."

In April, Texas Attorney General Greg Abbott's office was asked to give a legal opinion in a separate case on an issue connected to the 1999 ruling.

El Paso County Attorney Jo Anne Bernal asked for an opinion on whether the county clerk's office could issue a marriage license to two West Texas women if one of the women, who had previously undergone a sex change, presented a birth certificate that identified her as being born a man.

The West Texas couple didn't wait and went to San Antonio, where Bexar County officials granted them a marriage license, saying they relied on the 1999 ruling. Bexar County has previously issued marriage licenses in similar situations.

Abbott's office has yet to issue an opinion.

[Bluebiyou]

Tidal wave in Texas...
and after seeing what Mathew Shepard did for Laramie, Wyoming...

The firefighter's family claims married, for two years, and didn't realize...
Yeah, that's it. The firefighter didn't know.

While the outcome is very predictably sad, but everyone's feet in Texas will be wet from this wave.

[citystyleguy]

unfortunately there is not anywhere enough information for me to form an opinion; what sort of relationship did the firefighter have with his family, as is always in these cases where he said, she said, they said, etc, and then there is the truth.

i feel for the firefighter, and that this is to be his legacy, instead of the respect due him for his bravery and determination in fulfilling his calling. for those who loved him for himself, may they find the peace of acceptance and understanding.

as to the law, i cannot point a finger at any one state, unfortunately these legal quagmires exist throughout, and i am embarrassed and disgusted that my own great state has the doctrine of hate commonly known as prop 8; let's give our thanks to the mormon church for that one, and may the state's courts overturn that false legal doctrine! :2cents:

[MarieDelta]

The law in texas regarding transsexual / transgender people isnt clear. That is the root of this issue.

It was previously decided that transsexuals were only to be regarded as their birth sex(see Littleton V Prange (http://www.intersexinitiative.org/law/littleton-v-prange.html#hardberger)). In recent years they reversed that decision(see Texas Family Code (http://www.bilerico.com/2010/05/texas_considers_another_transsexual-cissexual_marr.php)) . At present it is contrary to Texas law for a man to marry a man. However, the law recogizes her amended birth certificate, under current texas family code.

Should be interesting to see which way the law falls this time. In my opinion, it's a toss up as far as the law goes. That being said, I am rooting for Ms Araguz to win this one.

This is the problem with tryng to fit people into boxes (esp gender binary boxes) some folks just dont fit into any one box or they may fit into several boxes. It also points out the hypocrissy in the anti gay marriage movement. Essentially saying we dont want gay marriage, but its up to us to determine what exactly makes a marriage gay. Then when their definitions get challenged, they change the rules of the game so it works for them.

[DuckiesDarling]

Personally, I'm rooting for her to win, not on the basis of OMG it's a trans but because I fully believe the mother in law just wants the benefits from her deceased son's job. I think it's pretty much disgusting that someone would try to downgrade any happiness her child might have had before he died just on the basis of money.

[MarieDelta]

For what its worth in my eyes, this is a heterosexual marriage. The fact that one of the partners had a birth defect has little or nothing to do with her current status as a female.

[TaylorMade]

He had children with his first wife from what I understand (http://abclocal.go.com/ktrk/story?section=news/local&id=7531334). I am going to have to side with the MiL and the first wife for the sake of the children and that they'll be supported. If nothing else, the money should be put into trust for the children, and a small sum to the new wife.

*Taylor*

[DuckiesDarling]

http://abcnews.go.com/US/transgender-widow-lose-husbands-benefits-suit-gender/story?id=11199690

Found another story and I find it troubling that they are saying he only found out when she was deposed in court earlier. The woman is arguing he knew, his friends and family are stating he didn't and was shocked and horrified to find out that she had been born a male.

I am not certain we will ever know the truth because the only person who could decide when he had the knowledge is dead and his benefits are being fought over by family members.

[MarieDelta]

He had children with his first wife from what I understand (http://abclocal.go.com/ktrk/story?section=news/local&id=7531334). I am going to have to side with the MiL and the first wife for the sake of the children and that they'll be supported. If nothing else, the money should be put into trust for the children, and a small sum to the new wife.

*Taylor*

But you would feel the same if the wife was cisgender , correct?

Treating her as anything less than a woman is wrong, in my opinion. It comes back to that, for me. Would you remove the spousal priveledges of someone who was born blind or deaf? How about someone with a cleft palate? It doesnt matter whether he knew or didnt know, it only matters that they were legally married.

This suit is only to stop her from sharing in the death bennefits. Regardless of its outcome the children, as his heirs, will recieve death bennefits.

In addition the mil is being a total biatch by insinuating that her former dil is not a woman.

Just my :2cents:

[TaylorMade]

But you would feel the same if the wife was cisgender , correct?

Treating her as anything less than a woman is wrong, in my opinion. It comes back to that, for me. Would you remove the spousal priveledges of someone who was born blind or deaf? How about someone with a cleft palate? It doesnt matter whether he knew or didnt know, it only matters that they were legally married.

This suit is only to stop her from sharing in the death bennefits. Regardless of its outcome the children, as his heirs, will recieve death bennefits.

In addition the mil is being a total biatch by insinuating that her former dil is not a woman.

Just my :2cents:

Small sum for the new wife, lion's share to the kids? Yup.That's the only fair solution, no matter what the configuration of the new wife was at birth.

*Taylor*

[MarieDelta]

From Nikki Araguz's facebook page:


‎"When we broke for lunch at the court house, we went across the street to eat. People shouted a number of slurs at Nikki and transgender people and Nikki broke down. Mark with Resurrection MCC Houston led everyone in a prayer for strength. By the time Nikki was feeling better, it was time to walk back to the court house and do it all again."

BTw not written by her. Just seems uncalled for, to me.

[MarieDelta]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D4NtZkE00RE

Interesting report on the case by fox news...

[IanBorthwick]

Just my 2 cents. We are more than meat and sinew and muscle and flesh...we are more than brain and thought. we are eternal beings of light, and something inside us tells us what we are...and that something eternal attracts to the opposite or same number..it calls out to be loved and love in return. Some part of that MUST be respected by the law and the world. What she was born is not important....what they felt for each other IS important. They loved, were wed, and now she is without the one she loved. I believe the court should see in her favor, but more importantly than money...she needs to be respected because she LOST the one she loved. My heart goes out to her

[DuckiesDarling]

Just my 2 cents. We are more than meat and sinew and muscle and flesh...we are more than brain and thought. we are eternal beings of light, and something inside us tells us what we are...and that something eternal attracts to the opposite or same number..it calls out to be loved and love in return. Some part of that MUST be respected by the law and the world. What she was born is not important....what they felt for each other IS important. They loved, were wed, and now she is without the one she loved. I believe the court should see in her favor, but more importantly than money...she needs to be respected because she LOST the one she loved. My heart goes out to her

Unfortunately, I have one major problem with your post. Yes they loved, but in the end we will never know if he loved HER or what he thought was her. This was addressed in another thread about when a trans should tell a partner or even if they should. The things coming out in this case pretty much prove that you should tell your partner before anything as serious as marriage. She does have a past as a man, there is no denying that legally. And it was apparently called into question and according to some hearsay that is when the husband found out. The same hearsay has him moving out and preparing to file for divorce or an annulment. If the law is applied as it is written in the Texas Code, then he would not even have had to do that as he was not legally married.

There will be a lot of pain and a lot of testimony from people still reeling from the impact of the death of a firefighter, recent police graduate, father and lover. I will be following this story and wondering if it will move out of Texas and to the US Supreme Court eventually. Every court decision, whether or not we agree with them, sets a precedent. And those precedents can be argued in future cases and impact the decisions of judges and juries.

I feel sympathy for the woman, but I feel sympathy for everyone impacted by the death of a brave man.

To have this fight over money and at heart about prejudice will cause his memory to be dragged through the mud. He will be on trial much more so than the wife or the former wife or the mother in law. I just hope they realize in their vendetta they risk destroying the one thing they should honor.

[MarieDelta]

Unfortunately, I have one major problem with your post. Yes they loved, but in the end we will never know if he loved HER or what he thought was her. This was addressed in another thread about when a trans should tell a partner or even if they should. The things coming out in this case pretty much prove that you should tell your partner before anything as serious as marriage. She does have a past as a man, there is no denying that legally. And it was apparently called into question and according to some hearsay that is when the husband found out. The same hearsay has him moving out and preparing to file for divorce or an annulment. If the law is applied as it is written in the Texas Code, then he would not even have had to do that as he was not legally married.

I would rather be dead. TYVM.

[Robinium]

I would rather be dead. TYVM.

I am a bitch when it comes to money. One of the reasons why I have left my plumbings and ovaries as they had always been by now. Being bi, you never know who you'll end up with. You can save a lot of taxes here in Germany if you marry instead of having an official same-sex "marriage". And, yes, the partner would always have trouble explaining why he is married to a "John" instead of to a "Mary" (or vice versa) whenever they fill out blanks but yeah you have to figure it out with them how it works best for them. (Here, you cannot name male kids Mary or female kids John, so no excuse).

Otherwise, I read through this thread and it does not get clear for me if the partner knew before marriage that the woman is trans. Well and in case it was not clear to him, then it's my opinion that the marriage was a fraud. But that's just my opinion. I don't care if someone I love is trans, I even dated a transwoman and I am a transguy. But I would hate my partner lying about it. As you cannot just shut up about it (as you can do sometimes with the bi-stuff) but need to lies to explain away your past or refuse to talk about it at all. That's a pain. And lying to your partner about it is awful.

Better be open to your partner and tell what is the matter (and run away safely in case he/she creeps out).

[Long Duck Dong]

they say that you can never escape your past.........

unfortunately for trans people, they are not exempt from that ......

even not revealing a past, doesn't work..... as you can change birth certificates and documents, but you can not change genetics and chromosomes

trans can fight against revealing their pasts and argue on a number of levels about how they should have the right to be who they are..... and I support that..... as long as nobody else ends up involved.....

and in a marriage etc, you have a partner to consider.... and while a trans person may not reveal their past.... medical tests can..... and thats when the other partner may learn the truth about their partner

[Robinium]

they say that you can never escape your past.........

No problem with my past, just with being put the wrong label on me again due to that. My past is okay. And not much trouble for me if I cause general confusion. It's almost the same kind of confusion that comes up among the general population as with the bi stuff. Weird, but true. :bigrin:


even not revealing a past, doesn't work..... as you can change birth certificates and documents, but you can not change genetics and chromosomes

Well normally nobody ever checks your chromosomes, so what the heck. That's horribly expensive anyway. Plus some trans people I know have chromosomes going odds with their original body (XXY, XY-women etc.), or always had an odd metabolism when it comes to sex hormones etc. These in fact intersex people go the official juristical trans way nevertheless here in Germany as we have no (!) well functioning German law for juristical intersex name and sex change so these intersex people go the official trans way and get labelled sickos by shrinks just to have a chance to change their name and gender. I think that's even worse than us trans people being officially labelled sickos.

I had a sex hormone anomaly anyway - way too much testosterone and got it suppressed by a hormone therapy all the years as I was told I had to, then stopped the hormones when I couldn't stand it any longer, and fell into male puberty with breaking of the voice etc. so... well... which label to put onto people like me?

And don't expect German administrations to just make nice people-friendly decisions based on what they think is okay as long as there's no strict and detailed rule how to do it written on paper by some authority. :bigrin:
German administration is not evil, it's really okay... but it is very German.


trans can fight against revealing their pasts and argue on a number of levels about how they should have the right to be who they are..... and I support that..... as long as nobody else ends up involved.....
and in a marriage etc, you have a partner to consider.... and while a trans person may not reveal their past.... medical tests can..... and thats when the other partner may learn the truth about their partner

That's exactly my opinion.

By the way, I have found out that it does not matter if I am out with being bi or trans or both. Silly reactions usually come from the same kind of people, and those who are okay with one are usually okay with both. Those who are not okay with one are not okay with the other. That's quite interesting, to think about it. Maybe stepping over the binary thing is what's in common here.

[MarieDelta]

I don't believe that a partner has a right to know everything. Should you tell? Perhaps. However, bear in mind that in every other way she is female and other than not being able to have children (plenty of cisgender women cant have children either), does it really matter?

Telling a partner is a very tricky thing, and in my experience it can sometimes cause the partner to treat you differently.

Again if I am post op, why should I have to tell my partner anything? It was a defect that was corrected, and now we can all move on to other things.

A partner does not have the "right" to know your history.

In some ways this case reinforces that belief. If he had never been told, his mother wouldnt know, and everything would have proceeded as if she were a cisgender woman.

Just my opinion.

[Long Duck Dong]

I would love to see a trans woman explain prostrate issues to their husband....

there is a number of issues that only affect one gender....and not the other... and if they surface due to medical issues, then questions will be asked.....

if the partner doesn't have the right to know things that could adversely affect the nature of the relationship..... then what do they have the right to know ???
and if you can not be open and honest with your partner.... why the hell would you profess to love them.... if you can not treat them with the same love and respect they are treating you with......

I will be dead honest..... all I am seeing is the statement * its ok to lie to my partner, cos this is how I see myself and therefore it gives me the right to mislead my partner *

we can apply the same rule to bisexuals in relationships.... its ok to lie to your partner and cheat as the need to sleep with the same gender is the important thing..... not the partner you are committed to....

I do not condone violence against trans people, but with attitudes like that, is it any wonder that they are targets.....

[DuckiesDarling]

Marie, I actually read a story where her parents were quoted as saying she had Complete Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome.

Doing some research it appears most medical experts agree that people with this syndrome are most often born with female genitalia. Now what I would love to know and I'm sure we will hear all about it as the court case proceeds... is why she needed to have gender reassignment surgery and exactly when the surgery took place.


Complete AIS
People with CAIS are generally girls or women with internal testes, 46,XY karyotypes, and normal female bodies by external appearance with some exceptions. The vagina is not as deep, and there are no ovaries or uterus— hence no menses or fertility. Gender identity is usually female.

Now I question further why she was identified as a male at birth if she had CAIS. The more that comes out about this case the more twists and turns show up.

Now as to the question of whether she should have told him. Hell yes. It might be the past but it's part of who she was, what made her, HER. Her partner had the right to know especially when it would affect their life together and has been proven by this case, the demons from our past can haunt us biding their time before they make an appearance in the most destructive way possible.

And I believe her partner did know since she had been active in speaking out about being trans for 15 years according to another web site.

I'm sorry, Marie, I love you I really do....but you have to realize when in a relationship. Your rights end where your partner's begin and vice versa. It's no longer one against the crowd, it's two as one.

[MarieDelta]

I would love to see a trans woman explain prostrate issues to their husband....

there is a number of issues that only affect one gender....and not the other... and if they surface due to medical issues, then questions will be asked.....

if the partner doesn't have the right to know things that could adversely affect the nature of the relationship..... then what do they have the right to know ???
and if you can not be open and honest with your partner.... why the hell would you profess to love them.... if you can not treat them with the same love and respect they are treating you with......

I will be dead honest..... all I am seeing is the statement * its ok to lie to my partner, cos this is how I see myself and therefore it gives me the right to mislead my partner *

we can apply the same rule to bisexuals in relationships.... its ok to lie to your partner and cheat as the need to sleep with the same gender is the important thing..... not the partner you are committed to....

I do not condone violence against trans people, but with attitudes like that, is it any wonder that they are targets.....

I'll say it again, no partner has the right to know anything about your past.

If you were a hooker, or a former fellon, if you were once part of the hells angels, it doesnt matter. Should you be honest? Perhaps. However there is no requirement to be honest.

If you are bi, and not cheating, and not planning on seeing members of the same sex. What is the pint of dragging useless complications into your life?

And I find that last statement pretty offensive. There is no justification for violence against an unarmed person except perhaps self defense, LDD, you should know that.

[MarieDelta]

Marie, I actually read a story where her parents were quoted as saying she had Complete Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome.

Doing some research it appears most medical experts agree that people with this syndrome are most often born with female genitalia. Now what I would love to know and I'm sure we will hear all about it as the court case proceeds... is why she needed to have gender reassignment surgery and exactly when the surgery took place.



Now I question further why she was identified as a male at birth if she had CAIS. The more that comes out about this case the more twists and turns show up.

Now as to the question of whether she should have told him. Hell yes. It might be the past but it's part of who she was, what made her, HER. Her partner had the right to know especially when it would affect their life together and has been proven by this case, the demons from our past can haunt us biding their time before they make an appearance in the most destructive way possible.

And I believe her partner did know since she had been active in speaking out about being trans for 15 years according to another web site.

I'm sorry, Marie, I love you I really do....but you have to realize when in a relationship. Your rights end where your partner's begin and vice versa. It's no longer one against the crowd, it's two as one.

Where in the marriage contract does it say that you give up any right to your privacy?

[MarieDelta]

I would love to see a trans woman explain prostrate issues to their husband....

....

Hmmm why would you have to explain prostate issues?

[DuckiesDarling]

Marie, when you are in a relationship that is deep and intensive and leads to marriage, you willingly share of yourself with your partner and drink in his sharing as if it was the sweetest water on earth.

You may not feel anyone deserves pure honesty from you, but many men and women feel that they have to be honest with their partners to build an unshakable foundation in a relationship. That's how you build true and lasting bonds.

There are many ways it could have been found out and this court deposition was only one of them.

[MarieDelta]

Marie, when you are in a relationship that is deep and intensive and leads to marriage, you willingly share of yourself with your partner and drink in his sharing as if it was the sweetest water on earth.

You may not feel anyone deserves pure honesty from you, but many men and women feel that they have to be honest with their partners to build an unshakable foundation in a relationship. That's how you build true and lasting bonds.

There are many ways it could have been found out and this court deposition was only one of them.

OK, so name one.

If this person was born intersexxed should they have to tell? Even if they themselves did not know?

Its nice to think that our loved ones would totally accept who and what we are, however that is not always the case.

[DuckiesDarling]

OK, so name one.

If this person was born intersexxed should they have to tell? Even if they themselves did not know?

Its nice to think that our loved ones would totally accept who and what we are, however that is not always the case.

Name one what? Another way they might have been found out? Anyone who recognized Nikki from school as Justin who said hello. Any medical issue that cropped up that is typically a male problem. When her husband pressed her to get infertility treatments because he wanted more kids... there are a lot of ways. Secrets never stay a secret when there are medical records.

We do not know she was intersexed, we have the parents stating she had CAIS, we have a birth certificate listing gender as male, which implies she was born with male genitalia. We have Nikki herself stating she had gender reassignment surgery. There are many things we do not know and that will probably come out in the court case.

And there are plenty of examples on this site of people who love and be loved no matter the status of their sexuality or their past, people who have partners that stand firm and face all obstacles together.

[Long Duck Dong]

I'll say it again, no partner has the right to know anything about your past.

If you were a hooker, or a former fellon, if you were once part of the hells angels, it doesnt matter. Should you be honest? Perhaps. However there is no requirement to be honest.

If you are bi, and not cheating, and not planning on seeing members of the same sex. What is the pint of dragging useless complications into your life?

And I find that last statement pretty offensive. There is no justification for violence against an unarmed person except perhaps self defense, LDD, you should know that.

check the us marriage annulment laws.....

failure to disclose a criminal past, failure to disclose a medical condition etc etc...... marriage by deception or fraud ( and in texas, fraud covers failure to reveal past gender ).....

a partner has the right to have the marriage annulled due to a number of reasons..... including the failure to reveal the fact that their partner is not genetically and biologically the person they appear to be.....

now thats not a attack on trans people.... its a medical fact..... there is some issues that affect both genders that are confined to only one gender..... things like prostate issues are not found in females so imagine having to have treatment for a issue like prostrate cancer and you are a female......
I bet any male partner would love to hear the explanation for that

or maybe a serious accident.... you end up in hospital, and the doctors treat you as a male.... but stop and question your partner about details of when you became a female and what hormonal treatment you are on.....

there is many different issues that can arise......

the choice is how long can you lie to your partner for.....and how long before the lies are revealed......
you may be a female now.... but you have a past.....

and your partner has the right of choice.... you may see yourself as a female, but they may not....and people do not take kindly to be decieved .... specially about who their partner once was......

[MarieDelta]

Name one what? Another way they might have been found out? Anyone who recognized Nikki from school as Justin who said hello. Any medical issue that cropped up that is typically a male problem. When her husband pressed her to get infertility treatments because he wanted more kids... there are a lot of ways. Secrets never stay a secret when there are medical records.

We do not know she was intersexed, we have the parents stating she had CAIS, we have a birth certificate listing gender as male, which implies she was born with male genitalia. We have Nikki herself stating she had gender reassignment surgery. There are many things we do not know and that will probably come out in the court case.

And there are plenty of examples on this site of people who love and be loved no matter the status of their sexuality or their past, people who have partners that stand firm and face all obstacles together.

First it is unlikely that someone would "recognize her". I've had people that I worked with walk right past me or even talk to me and never recogize that I am who I am. In fact a gf's children recently asked her where she knew me from when I showed up in male mode(from doing some particularrly nasty job) to pick her up. Yes, they know me in female mode, have talked to me, and sat next to me for longer than five minutes.

Typical male medical issues? Prostate cancer? Treated with estrogen and (sometimes) removal of testes (SRS does similar things.) What other "typical male" medical issues would you be thinking of?

Infertility treatments would be treated with the answer that the ovaries either never developed due to birth defect or were removed due to health reasons( "I've had my reproductive organs removed, sorry dear".)

As far as medical records, those are sealed for privacy, to my knowledge only you and your Dr have access to them without specifically granting someone permision, and that includes your spouse.

I'm not specifically addressing her case when I bring up intersexxed issues. However what if a chromosome test revealed that she was , in fact intersexxed? Would that change the issue? How do you define someone's gender? Based on what the Dr saw when he inspected you at birth? that can be very misleading as there are things that go on (gender and sex wise) that are not apparent to the naked eye.

As far as a serious accident and treating you as male? I do know post op transwomen who have had to explain their medical past to Drs, and to my knowlege in a serious accident, most things that are done to save a persons life are similar. The only difference being perhaps in the reproductive area and even that, post SRS, could be explained as being intersexxed. Which, if you stop to think about it, based on current medical findings, transsexual women are intersexxed.

[void()]

"As for the law itself I'm not living in Texas or a transsexual so it does not effect me."

First they came (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_they_came...) ...

The more bigotry and stupidity I see, further lends to perceiving a war on anything different than mainstream. So yeah, be an ostrich and let it pass by. They'll come for you as well, have no doubt in that.

[Robinium]

I'll say it again, no partner has the right to know anything about your past.

If you were a hooker, or a former fellon, if you were once part of the hells angels, it doesnt matter. Should you be honest? Perhaps. However there is no requirement to be honest.

Well not telling to your partner that you grew up as a male (bodily) compares more to not telling you grew up in Russia instead of Germany. It's not just a weird phase you went through, or stupid things you did, but just your complete childhood and adolescence. And you have to break all ties with your past and cannot ever bring your partner to your family for fear of them telling the truth (be it by accident) etc. I would hate it if I found out by accident that my partner had grown up in Russia, not in Germany, though I have no problem whatever with Russia or Russians.


If you are bi, and not cheating, and not planning on seeing members of the same sex. What is the pint of dragging useless complications into your life?

I prefer to take the risk of being pushed away by a partner who does not accept it than having to deny or hide away what I am and never know if my partner would still accept me for who or what I am. People who don't accept who you are don't deserve to share their life with yours anyway.

[void()]

MD hon,

Normally I am apt to concur with you. But ... well.

"I'll say it again, no partner has the right to know anything about your past.

If you were a hooker, or a former fellon, if you were once part of the hells angels, it doesnt matter. Should you be honest? Perhaps. However there is no requirement to be honest.

Do you want pure love from the relationship? If yes, then I think a prerequisite is to oblige honesty. Without honesty the partner may feel deceived, betrayed. A strong and loving relationship isn't founded on such feelings.

If you are bi, and not cheating, and not planning on seeing members of the same sex. What is the pint of dragging useless complications into your life?

Again it comes round to an issue of pure love. I know it is a dire gamble but you never know until you wager. Sometime/s you might get pleasantly surprised. And yes, I agree other times the surprise isn't so peachy. It still doesn't excuse the fear, or lack of courage.

Courage is not a lack of fear but a realization and setting aside of the fear for something more important. I think True and pure love are well more important than being afraid of adverse reactions from a partner. If they do react that way, then we're you really ever truly involved? Plenty of fish in the huge ocean, baby, sure enough you can find a few or more that accept you fully as you.
"

"People who don't accept who you are don't deserve to share their life with yours anyway."

Amen to that.

[sephirothtx]

i find this souless bigotry, it wouldn't be the same had the trasgendered been a natrual born women without sex to re-correct her.

[DuckiesDarling]

i find this souless bigotry, it wouldn't be the same had the trasgendered been a natrual born women without sex to re-correct her.

And yet that is the heart of the problem here, the law in that state does not allow for same sex marriages. Another law refuses to allow Nikki to be classed as female because her birth certificate lists her gender as male.

No one is saying that is right but the way the law is now it's pretty clear she will lose on one grounds or another and all while dealing with the loss of her husband.

[MarieDelta]

MD hon,

Normally I am apt to concur with you. But ... well.

"I'll say it again, no partner has the right to know anything about your past.

If you were a hooker, or a former fellon, if you were once part of the hells angels, it doesnt matter. Should you be honest? Perhaps. However there is no requirement to be honest.

Do you want pure love from the relationship? If yes, then I think a prerequisite is to oblige honesty. Without honesty the partner may feel deceived, betrayed. A strong and loving relationship isn't founded on such feelings.

If you are bi, and not cheating, and not planning on seeing members of the same sex. What is the pint of dragging useless complications into your life?

Again it comes round to an issue of pure love. I know it is a dire gamble but you never know until you wager. Sometime/s you might get pleasantly surprised. And yes, I agree other times the surprise isn't so peachy. It still doesn't excuse the fear, or lack of courage.

Courage is not a lack of fear but a realization and setting aside of the fear for something more important. I think True and pure love are well more important than being afraid of adverse reactions from a partner. If they do react that way, then we're you really ever truly involved? Plenty of fish in the huge ocean, baby, sure enough you can find a few or more that accept you fully as you.
"

"People who don't accept who you are don't deserve to share their life with yours anyway."

Amen to that.

Void,

You know, of course, this is pretty much contrary to the wy I operate.

I'd rather be rejected at the outset by some homo/transphobic piece of trash.

However I can see a time when I dont want to be treated as anything other than a woman.

I do realize that only another transperson can see why I feel this way. Cisgender folks dont see this as an issue because , for them it isnt.

But someone knowing your transsexual past, does change how they treat you, based on my experience. To some they are willing to accept you despite your past, to others you become an untouchable- something less than human. It always changes how you are treated, however.

[TaylorMade]

Void,

You know, of course, this is pretty much contrary to the wy I operate.

I'd rather be rejected at the outset by some homo/transphobic piece of trash.

However I can see a time when I dont want to be treated as anything other than a woman.

I do realize that only another transperson can see why I feel this way. Cisgender folks dont see this as an issue because , for them it isnt.

But someone knowing your transsexual past, does change how they treat you, based on my experience. To some they are willing to accept you despite your past, to others you become an untouchable- something less than human. It always changes how you are treated, however.


What if it's someone who just isn't into transgendered people and wants to be able to trust their partner totally?

*Taylor*

[MarieDelta]

What if it's someone who just isn't into transgendered people and wants to be able to trust their partner totally?

*Taylor*

What if it's someone who just isn't into [black/asian/latino/jewish/white/native american] people and wants to be able to trust their partner totally?

[TaylorMade]

What if it's someone who just isn't into [black/asian/latino/jewish/white/native american] people and wants to be able to trust their partner totally?

The race card. . .seriously, Marie? You can tell 90% of the time what someone's race is... or if they are bi-racial.

I prefer not to date black men. . .so I don't. If someone decided to lie about it, and I find out, I DO wonder what else they're gonna lie about. It is gonna affect the relationship negatively - - not because of the race but because they LIED.

It's a trust thing at the heart of it.

*Taylor*

[MarieDelta]

What if it's someone who just isn't into transgendered people and wants to be able to trust their partner totally?

*Taylor*

What if it's someone who just isn't into handicapped/fat/thin/tall/ugly people and wants to be able to trust their partner totally?

[TaylorMade]

What if it's someone who just isn't into handicapped/fat/thin/tall/ugly people and wants to be able to trust their partner totally?

That's their preference and . . . those are things that are visible to the naked eye 90% of the time!

You are losing almost all logic here. . . It's not about the attributes, it's about THE TRUTH!

*Taylor*

[DuckiesDarling]

What if it's someone who just isn't into handicapped/fat/thin/tall/ugly people and wants to be able to trust their partner totally?

Marie, I think you are missing the point. Obviously any of the things you mention are easily discernible at first glance let alone long before you are in any position of intimacy.

There are some people in this world that just don't get into trans, for whatever reason. You are very lucky, you have people who know you as trans and love you for YOU, not because you are trans but because you are MarieDelta.

Should it change the feelings knowing someone is trans? Depends. Some people have no idea what it means for a trans person to be trans. Some would love the opportunity to understand. But when you love a person you love all of the person. That's what love is about accepting your partner for who and what they are, but you will never be given the chance if your partner doesn't share with you exactly who and what they are. :2cents:

[MarieDelta]

That's their preference and . . . those are things that are visible to the naked eye 90% of the time!

You are losing almost all logic here. . . It's not about the attributes, it's about THE TRUTH!

*Taylor*

what is the "Truth"

Is it more important to you that someones external appearance matches their internal personality?

Or is it more important that they appear "normal"?

Or?

What if someone was born unnatractive and had plastic surgery, should they reveal themselves as having been unnatractive? what if they had breast enhancement surgery? Breast reduction surgery? drastic weight loss?

Suppose someone's had an abortion is that relevant?

Should you open your medical files and let them have a look at the "real" you?

[TaylorMade]

what is the "Truth"

Is it more important to you that someones external appearance matches their internal personality?

Or is it more important that they appear "normal"?

Or?

What if someone was born unnatractive and had plastic surgery, should they reveal themselves as having been unnatractive? what if they had breast enhancement surgery? Breast reduction surgery? drastic weight loss?

Suppose someone's had an abortion is that relevant?

Should you open your medical files and let them have a look at the "real" you?

It's more important that I know the truth about the person I've fallen in love with, their experiences and their realities and that includes the unflattering parts as well.

What you've mentioned changes facets OF that person and not the very fundamental nature of that person, which is what SRS does.

*Taylor*

[MarieDelta]

It's more important that I know the truth about the person I've fallen in love with, their experiences and their realities and that includes the unflattering parts as well.

What you've mentioned changes facets OF that person and not the very fundamental nature of that person, which is what SRS does.

*Taylor*

I disagree. SRS does not change the person, it changes the body. The genitals, like everything else on that list, are not who we are.

There is a difference.

I have always been this way, since the day I was born, someday my body will match my personality.

[Long Duck Dong]

I have a mental illness.... and I am intersex....... there are some things that I just can not lie about and hide from DD as DD is no fool.... we first met online in a game in a chat room....and she picked up things about me in the first couple of days..... things I was later to talk about and share info.....

regardless of how I see myself,.... there are things that I can not hide about me, that reveal aspects about me...... and trans are no different... there are trans people that honestly, are not feminine, their body and mannerism and facial features show the world, that they are trans.....

yes there are some trans people that are very hard to pick as trans people..... but their body type, their looks and their mannerism is so feminine as a male, that they find it easy to become a female.....

that is what has made our relationship stronger..... shes not in a relationship with a mentally ill, intersex, bisexual...... shes in a relationship with me.... and aware of issues I deal with on a daily basis....

cos I have been honest with DD I do not need to hide the things I do daily .... and marie, you posted a long list once of what trans women have to do
its a lil hard to hide that stuff from a partner on a daily basis..... unless you intend to lie to your partner on a daily basis....... and while you feel that you should be seen as a woman..... your partner feels they should be seen as your partner.... not somebody you will not be open with

its your call, your choice and your life..... but remember your choices if your actions turn to shit and you turn to people that remind you.... you created it by your own actions

[Robinium]

Regardless of Transpeople like Marie who lie and say that they were born the opposite gender of the one they were born it is not that hard to tell if someone's transsexual or intersex.

Well, most transguys as long as they keep their pants on pass 100%. Many transwomen don't pass well or 100%, or it depends on how well the other people's "trans-dar" works. However, I know a couple of exceptions. For example, a friend of mine who is a transwoman went to a couple of trans meetings with me and after an hour or so always was asked by the others why she was there, whether she wanted to transition to male or had a trans partner or something. Best passing you can get. :rolleyes:

Not even her voice gives her away, she never had to work on it. I had known her from work long before transition and had "wrongly" sexed her female on the telephone then and got corrected verrryyy cheerfully ("Oh I'm sorry I said Ms. XXX !" / "Oh, that really does not bother me, this happens to me all the time (biggrin)". Haha.). Then I just KNEW what was going on. Well there's some intersex stuff going on in her case, she had very weird sex hormone levels all her life so her body never fully "developed" into an adult male state.

She even had an affair with a guy who said he could never ever sleep with a transwoman and he never found out she was trans. We burst out laughing when she told me this. :bigrin: Many intersex people can be even much much harder to detect if at all. It's just that on TV, they almost never show trans and inter people with a 100% passing.

And now think again about all the women you've ever slept with in your life or all the guys who ever gave you a blow job... You just can't know for sure. :bigrin:


Being born the opposite gender is not a "birth defect" for a transsexual since despite all of the surgery they have done to get a fake vagina or fake penis made, and hormones they take and however well they think they pass they're always going to biologically be their natural born sex/gender as hormone supplements and surgery do not change someone's sex or gender.

No offense dude, but you should really look up the dictionary for the difference between "sex" and "gender (identity)". Plus what "biological sex" is composed of. Otherwise, it might get you into trouble when arguing with trans and inter people as the way you use the words is not only wrong and misleading but offensive too.


If you are TS or intersex you should not lie to anyone who you are dating/sleeping with, or in a relationship with since your true gender will come around and bite you in the ass.

Sleeping with I don't agree, dating I agree with you.


Most straight men do not want to date or have sex with a TS women since they're not real/biologically women, and the same goes for gay men having sex and dating TS men who never will have cocks or be real men or biologically male.

Depends a lot on how good the passing is. Amazingly, the missing cock indeed is a no-go for about half or two thirds of gay males, but not for all. Otherwise the main problem gays and straights get if they find a trans person attractive is that they start worrying about whether they are really that straight/gay.

[Robinium]

Void,

You know, of course, this is pretty much contrary to the wy I operate.

I'd rather be rejected at the outset by some homo/transphobic piece of trash.

However I can see a time when I dont want to be treated as anything other than a woman.

I do realize that only another transperson can see why I feel this way. Cisgender folks dont see this as an issue because , for them it isnt.

But someone knowing your transsexual past, does change how they treat you, based on my experience. To some they are willing to accept you despite your past, to others you become an untouchable- something less than human. It always changes how you are treated, however.

Agree 100%. Or you get treated like your "old" sex again or a mix-max of both. Or they become extremely proud of their tolerance and boast of it and think you should be very grateful for being accepted, which is not much better. Trans is hella weird or confusing for a lot of people, and some never get over the confusion. Some non-trans people get the concept of what being trans means, though. :2cents:

[MarieDelta]

cos I have been honest with DD I do not need to hide the things I do daily .... and marie, you posted a long list once of what trans women have to do


Are you talking about this list?




1.It is unlikely that I will be ostracized by my family and friends, fired from my job, evicted from my home, given substandard medical care, suffer violent or sexual abuse, ridiculed by the media, or preached against by religious organizations simply because of my professed identity or perceived incongruent gendered behaviors or characteristics.

2.I can be confident that people will not call me by a different name or use improper pronouns.

3.I never suffered the indignation of "holding it", when both functional and unoccupied public restrooms are available. In fact, I don't need to be concerned about public facilities segregated by sex.

4.If I am institutionalized, I don't have to worry about being housed in the wrong section of a facility segregated by sex.

5.I am not denied entrance to appropriate services or events that are segregated by sex.

6.My childhood innocence was not interrupted with desperate prayers to a divinity begging to wake up the opposite sex.

7.I never grieve about my lost childhood and adolescence because I was born the opposite sex.

8.I will only experience puberty once.

9.I never worry about potential lovers shifting instantly from amorous to disdain and even violence because of my genitals.

10.I am unlikely to be questioned about my genitals, even less likely to be touched inappropriately or asked to see them.

11.It is unlikely that I would risk my health by avoiding the medical profession for fear of discovery.

12.I never considered hiding my body parts by binding or tucking.

13.It is unlikely that I would consider changing my voice.

14.If I have a professionally recognized and diagnosed condition, I am unlikely to be excluded from medical insurance coverage.

15.As a man, I am more likely to look my age, and have a body similar in size and shape to other men.

16.As a man, I am more likely to be satisfied with the functionality of my genitals.

17.As a man, I am more likely able to father children .

18.As a woman, I am more likely to have a body similar in size and shape to other women.

19.As a woman, I am unlikely to lose my hair before middle age.

20.As a woman, I am more likely able to conceive and bear children.

21.As a woman, I don't have to dilate the rest of my life.

22.I am more likely able to achieving orgasm.

23.I will likely have $50,000 or more to spend or save for retirement.

24.I can't imagine spending months and $1000s of dollars on a therapist so they can tell me something I already knew.

25.If I am physically healthy, I don't think about having a hysterectomy, a mastectomy, massive hair removal, contra hormone therapy, vocal surgery, facial reassignment surgery, or genital reassignment surgery.

26.I have a better chance of reaching old age without taking my own life.

27.At my funeral, it is unlikely that my family would present me crossdressed against my living wishes.

28.I never worry about passing gender wise. I am oblivious to the consequences of someone failing to do so, and consequently loosing my cisgender (non transgender) privilege. In fact, I have the privilege of being completely unaware of my own cisgender privilege.

Because most of this is based on perception and pre-transition experiences.

Although this clearly falls under number 9 & 28.

[void()]

MD,

Do you recall meeting me that first time in chat? I recall it pretty well. Everyone kept trying to drop hints to me of your transforming. I didn't care, still don't. You presented yourself as a lady, or more directly a Lady.

That's how I see you, always will. Does it matter that you may have once been a Guy? Not to me, really. But it is nice to know you wouldn't hold that back. And I remember you didn't.

There are lots more people out in the world that can and will accept you for you. Your plumbing doesn't matter to them, change it half a dozen times ... they still love you for you.

But the kicker being you have to step outside the safe zone. You need to trust people. I am horribly sorry for all the blasted jerks out there, please don't let them prejudice you against all people. And this so far seems what it's leading to.

You're probably loved for you by a lot more people than you care to know. We're reaching out to you but you keep running to the bushes of fear and hate. That way only brings tears and madness, not good old fashion easy going insanity but madness that screws lives over bad.

I struggle with that daily myself. Some of my reasons are different from yours but it's madness nonetheless. You don't need that in your life hon. None of us do. Hell if you can't or won't talk to me, holler at Rock or Dogwood. See you got people. Communication goes both ways.

We'll listen. But don't go shutting and locking the door on everyone. And yes I know how you operate, silly gal. "Be hated for what I am besides being loved for what I am not." I understand that all too well. It follows another expression, "I'll die on my feet before groveling like a dog to tyranny."

No one here asks you to grovel. If they did Drew would kick them so hard and far they'd wish their grandchildren knew what ugly was. And you'd have your friends kicking them just as hard if not harder. You're safe on this site if nothing else. And you can speak up and place a 911 call here if you need to. I'm sure someone would come help.

((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((( MD ))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

I just got that, hon. What do you need?

[Axeman]

Well the previous court ruling ratio of "genetics not genitals decide gender" may prevent her from getting benefits under a plan of insurance but if he had a will, then the assets of his estate could be directed to her without interference -- although I'm sure his family would allege fraud or that he made his testamentary designations under a mistake of fact and that had he not been under the mistake of fact, he would have designated another beneficiary...it would seem to me that a federal appeal court would not want to have an issue like this being different outcomes in different states...it wouldn't really be the United States of America then, would it?

But I wonder why the previous decision was not appealed higher. In Canada, the definition of spouse was broadened to allow same sex spouses benefits. In light of that, the same issue would never arise here in Canada.

Tragic and sad, without a doubt. Poor man...poor wife...and yes, poor family..they lost a son / broghre and are obviously confused by a lot of things and never I guess, accepted the marriage.

[MarieDelta]

Well the previous court ruling ratio of "genetics not genitals decide gender" may prevent her from getting benefits under a plan of insurance but if he had a will, then the assets of his estate could be directed to her without interference -- although I'm sure his family would allege fraud or that he made his testamentary designations under a mistake of fact and that had he not been under the mistake of fact, he would have designated another beneficiary...it would seem to me that a federal appeal court would not want to have an issue like this being different outcomes in different states...it wouldn't really be the United States of America then, would it?

But I wonder why the previous decision was not appealed higher. In Canada, the definition of spouse was broadened to allow same sex spouses benefits. In light of that, the same issue would never arise here in Canada.

Tragic and sad, without a doubt. Poor man...poor wife...and yes, poor family..they lost a son / broghre and are obviously confused by a lot of things and never I guess, accepted the marriage.


After her attorneys who screwed the legal pooch dropped her, she ended up being represented by transgender attorneys Phyllis Frye and Alyson Meiselman. They tried to get the case reversed in 2000, but the all-Republican at the time Texas Supreme in April 2000 denied the hearing. The US Supreme Court in October 2000 denied it as well.
http://transgriot.blogspot.com/2009/08/littleton-v-prange-10th-anniversary.html

As a result in some of the counties in Texas it is legal to be married MTF-M and other its legal to be married MTF-F(the counties covered by the 4th circuit.)

[Axeman]

Well then...I guess its the States of America and not United States lol...at least on this issue...

I wonder why other "minority" or "special interest groups" (I had no idea what to call them), don't throw their support behind this poor woman b/c, from a Canadian view, this is a flagrant violation of the concept of equality. There is a saying that if you don't stand up and protect your neighbour when they come for him, pretty soon there would be no one to stand up and protect you when they come for you...I don't know..something like that...

[darkeyes]

Well then...I guess its the States of America and not United States lol...at least on this issue...

I wonder why other "minority" or "special interest groups" (I had no idea what to call them), don't throw their support behind this poor woman b/c, from a Canadian view, this is a flagrant violation of the concept of equality. There is a saying that if you don't stand up and protect your neighbour when they come for him, pretty soon there would be no one to stand up and protect you when they come for you...I don't know..something like that...

First they came for the Communists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Communist
Then they came for the Socialist
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Socialist
Then they came for the trade unionists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a trade unionist
Then they came for the Jews
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Jew
Then they came for me
And there was no one left
To speak out for me

Pastor Martin Niemoller

[MarieDelta]

Well then...I guess its the States of America and not United States lol...at least on this issue...

I wonder why other "minority" or "special interest groups" (I had no idea what to call them), don't throw their support behind this poor woman b/c, from a Canadian view, this is a flagrant violation of the concept of equality. There is a saying that if you don't stand up and protect your neighbour when they come for him, pretty soon there would be no one to stand up and protect you when they come for you...I don't know..something like that...

Ok so here is a political breakdown regarding transgender marriage/ transgender politics

Transgender/ transsexuals form less than 3% of the general population. Thats just the ones who complete transition there might be as much as 13% total, but its hard to say what the actual numbers are.

The transsexual population as a whole is low income/ low power. there are afew women who've managed to keep their jobs through transition, but we generally tend to lose status and income during transition. Therefore we have less power than many organizations.

GL(BT) organizations tend to favor the GL while leaving the BT in the dust. Mostly because the B is disorganised and the T forms such a small minority that we get overrun. In addition the T gets a lot of being told to "wait your turn" and "we'll come back for you once we(G&L) have rights."

Right now the G&L are occupied with two main issues - same sex marriage and gays in the military. Enda doesnt look like it will be passed anytime soon and if it did, it might not include any real protection for trassexuals.

As far as other minority organisations they either tend to ignore us, or dont want anything to do with us for religous reasons. Partly because we are allied with GLBT and partly because "it just aint right what you queers are doin."

Welcome to the USA, land of the (almost, but not quite) free.

[Kiowa_Pacer]

I am somewhat confused, which for me today isnt a difficult feat, but they were married for a 2 year time peroid and he didnt Know that his spouse was transgendered? Oh Puleeze.

I feel bad for the lady in question, and the children they had as well. As a Firefighter his children should be able to recieve his benefits for their future. If they were still married, I am sure his wife will recieve the spousal benefits as well. I hope it turns out well for her and the kids.

Kit

[Robinium]

Transgender/ transsexuals form less than 3% of the general population. Thats just the ones who complete transition there might be as much as 13% total, but its hard to say what the actual numbers are.

I think the percentage you mention is much much too high...

As for Texas laws, it's ridiculous that it's different from county to county. I thought our laws were silly in this respect, but that tops all.

[MarieDelta]

I think the percentage you mention is much much too high...

As for Texas laws, it's ridiculous that it's different from county to county. I thought our laws were silly in this respect, but that tops all.

ok so it was high


Olyslager and Conway also argued that the U.S. population of assigned males having already undergone reassignment surgery by the top three U.S. SRS surgeons alone is enough to account for the entire transsexual population implied by the 1:10,000 prevalence number. This excludes all other U.S. SRS surgeons, surgeons in countries such as Thailand, Canada, and others, and the high proportion of transsexuals who have not yet sought treatment, suggesting that a prevalance of 1:10,000 is too low.

[DuckiesDarling]

Another link...

http://www.myfoxhouston.com/dpp/news/local/100727-transgender-drama-seeps-into-courtroom

[MarieDelta]

The set up is usual. A number of friends, a beverage of choice, and a transgender documentary.

Take one drink if...

A transwoman is shown putting on makeup or fixing her hair, or if a transman is shown shaving or slicking back his hair. If they show two transfolks in one shot, take two drinks.

The narrator uses the words "unusual," "shocking," or "disturbing" to describe a transgender person and/or the process of transitioning from one gender to another.

"She" and "her" is used to describe a transman, or "he" and "him" is used to describe a transwoman.

The birth name of a transgender person is used to describe the person after ze begin transition or when ze is shown in a preferred gender. Take an extra drink if the narrator has already stressed that the person in question has changed hir name.

If anyone makes the assumption that genitals equal gender.

A transwoman is shown doing a stereotypically feminine action, like shopping in the mall, or a transman is shown doing something stereo typically masculine, such as playing a sport.

If a transman is shown putting on and/or straightening a tie.

If old photographs are used to try and show that a transperson used to visually fit into their birth gender.

If anyone uses the phrase "a man trapped in a woman's body," or vice versa.

If undergarments are shown. Make it two if they happen to be a gaff or a binder.

Take two drinks if...

No transmen are shown.

The transgender people presented are predominately Caucasian, and predominately middle or upper class.

An "expert" is brought on to talk about how "wrong" being transgender is. You may as well add a third if they happen to be using a religious argument against being transgender.

The family of a transgender person is shown, particularly if they are negative towards their loved one's transgender status.

If anyone says, "You will always be """" to me," where the blank represents a transperson's birth gender.

Finish the bottle if...

You discover you accidentally put on Ed Wood's "Glen or Glenda," or if the only thing you can find on that has to do with being transgendered happens to be The Jerry Springer Show. Just don't waste anything expensive in the process.



Hmmm I'm counting four shots here...

[IanBorthwick]

Maybe I am opening myself up for potshots again, but what the hell.

Marie is arguing, albeit in a LARGE way about truth. Having experience in this area about gender identity and transpersons, let me put in my idea as to what the "truth" is.

The person that they were, whether it is male or female, they find to be not themselves. But rather than jump into a change, they conform as anyone closeted does. A "veneer" appears to protect them from the world because they know what they will deal with if they come out and begin to change. SO this internal resistance creates a fictitious character they portray to the world. One that is well suited to keeping them safe from the prying eyes of the world. However, this figment isn;t real, as inside the person cries for change, to be themselves, to be free, walk the world as the gender they know inside they must be. And THAT is not the "truth" of their souls. SO why should they be forced to face this protection mechanism they were forced to invite and enrobe themselves in as some kind of personal truth. It is not only painful to them to face, but a massive effort to shuck off like a useless shell in the first place.

Changing is not easy, and a transgendered person not only has to change inside...AGAIN..but also their outside. Even down to cutting apart this useless character they created in their minds to shield them. This is often traumatic, leading to nightmares and depression as they are forced to cut it away. Some even liken it to killing a fractured persona. I prefer to think of it as simply passing through a mind adolescing into the true adult form they were never allowed to become.

So in the search for "truth" all you do is stir up untruth forced painfully into their lives and demand the transperson face up to it again as though their current life is a mockery of what they went through to get to their current self.

As I said before, we are more than muscle and sinew and meat...we are luminous beings, and to say that he had a right to anything more than loving is just unqualified BS. The law doesn't make something right. The law cannot enforce some kind of truth, it only rips, tears, forces and smashes and calls itself unreproachable.

[void()]

First they came for the Communists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Communist
Then they came for the Socialist
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Socialist
Then they came for the trade unionists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a trade unionist
Then they came for the Jews
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Jew
Then they came for me
And there was no one left
To speak out for me

Pastor Martin Niemoller


Ayup, ayup ... Dat's De One Mate. And while I do agree in pacifism, there is also a right to defend yourself and those you love. Trouble being when start looking at family trees you realize most if not all of us are the same kin. So you end up being the good knight and protecting the people. It's nice to know there's others of us out there. ((((( DarkEyes )))))

[MarieDelta]

So interesting the worm turns -

Nikki says she told her husband the truth when they first met...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yakpp6qbNKI

[DuckiesDarling]

Okay, been trying to find updates on Nikki but it appears to be a long and winding road that can affect a lot of transpeople who have completed their genital reassignment surgery.


Shame, it still appears it's all about money.

All the links you need to get up todate on in one page below.

http://transgriot.blogspot.com/2011/01/nikki-araguz-trial-links.html

[Hephaestion]

.........Shame, it still appears it's all about money..........

Strange that

[Doggiestyle]

:bigrin: You know? After reading all these statements I have come to the conclusion that---:bigrin:

:rolleyes: The only thing that I am sure about is the fact that I really don't know what to think about all this! :rolleyes:

That's what I think. Your friend, :doggie:

[tvoyemat]

If I married a woman and found out subsequently that that person is/was/had been a man, I'd do the same as the fireman did- walk out on the "marriage".

To my mind, love doesn't encompass being duped about as fundamental element of the union as the gender of my spouse.

[Diva667]

If I married a woman and found out subsequently that that person is/was/had been a man, I'd do the same as the fireman did- walk out on the "marriage".

To my mind, love doesn't encompass being duped about as fundamental element of the union as the gender of my spouse.

Well , so much for love.

But two things come to mind as well -

1) She told him prior to the marriage.

2) She was never a "man." She once had a male sex organ, and was designated male at birth, but that isn't the same.

[matutum]

http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/americas/3951316/Firefighters-transgender-widow-fights-for-estate

geed,greed,greed, my son is dead and because we don't agree with who he married he/she can't get any of the money????

[drugstore cowboy]

WHARTON, Texas – A Wharton County judge on Tuesday declared that a transgender widow’s marriage to a fallen Wharton firefighter was not valid, so she is not eligible for his death benefits.

Ever since Thomas Araguz died fighting a fire at an egg farm last year, his family has been battling his widow, Nikki Araguz, over $600,000 in death benefits. The firefighter’s family argued that, since Nikki Araguz was born a man, her marriage to Thomas Araguz –under Texas law – was not valid. The family said the death benefits should go to Thomas Araguz’s two children with his first wife. But Nikki Araguz has maintained that Thomas Araguz knew about her past as a man, and that their marriage was legal. Nikki Araguz had sexual reassignment surgery after the marriage. The couple was estranged at the time of Thomas Araguz’s death. On Tuesday, Judge Randy Clapp said that because Nikki Araguz was born a man, Thomas Araguz was not married on the day he died, and any marriage – formal or informal – is void.

"Other states may recognize that but Texas does not recognize a change in gender," said attorney Frank Mann, who represents Heather Delgado."You are what you are born in the state of Texas."

And those two kids, who have suffered the trauma of losing their father, are 7 and 10 years old respesctively. And she went on Jerry Springer in the 90's for money and publicity? Sorry, but I have zero sympathy for this whore. The money should go to the Firefighter's kids and not to this media whore.

it's hard to have sympathy for this woman, She comes across as an
opportunist and a money grubber.

WHARTON, Texas -- While waiting for a Wharton County judge to rule on the validity of her marriage to a Wharton County firefighter, transgender widow Nikki Araguz was arrested and posted bond last week on an unrelated felony charge of theft.

According to court documents filed by the Harris County District Attorney’s office, Araguz posted $2,000 bond May 18. The allegations date back to February when a woman claims she was "drugged" shortly after meeting Araguz and another woman, and that when she woke up, her expensive Rolex watch was gone. The watch is valued at $2,850.

Prosecutors say Araguz denied being involved in theft. But the employee of a Houston pawn shop testified that on March 1, Araguz came into his store trying to pawn a Rolex watch.

[transcendMental]

Surprise, surprise, Texas decides to stick with their "apparent genitals at birth" definition of sex. Since nobody does chromosome testing at birth (not that that would clear everything up either), I wonder what they do with the inevitable cases of misdiagnosed sex, like males with undescended testicles or females with micropenises.

It's sad but clear that they have no concept that there is a difference between sex and gender. Attorney Frank Mann's comment that Texas does not recognize a change in gender is complete ignorance. It's sex that they don't recognize as changing.

As for the earlier discussion about "right to know", I think Long Duck Dong's reminder of marriages being annulled if a medical condition is kept from a spouse is the important decider to me. Transsexualism is a medical condition (this is widely recognized by the medical community, and the psychological community seems to understand this more and more), and so legally a diagnosis should be disclosed. Of course, one can debate whether transition and surgery cure the condition, and whether a cured medical condition has to be disclosed, but I'll keep an open mind on those questions for now.

Personally, I think I would end up telling anyone I was getting close to long before marriage was anywhere near the picture, because I would want to know if they had bigoted feelings about it, so I could ditch them earlier rather than later. I told my current partner on our second date, because at the time it was important to me that she know she was dealing with a woman.

But I've also found that since transition, I think less and less about the fact that I am/was a transsexual. So especially if someone transitions early (these days there are hormone treatments for adolescents that give results I truly envy), with surgery in their early 20s I can see by the time they get to be my age that they could make an honest mistake of just not thinking about it when they meet someone new, even as that relationship progresses.

To put it into perspective, I had minor surgery (not related to gender dysphoria) when I was 18 that completely addressed a medical issue; I think if I married someone today and had forgotten about that surgery, I would be pretty much forgiven in court for not telling my spouse about that condition before marriage. But many assume that if a transsexual doesn't tell, then it has to be because they are trying to mislead. Yes, I know many transpeople do lie to "protect" their pasts or to mislead. But the assumption that if they didn't tell, then they must have been trying to cover up or mislead is clear ignorance and transphobia.

tm

[Long Duck Dong]

agreed TM.....

being intersex myself, I carry a genetic abnormality that I disclose to doctors and medical specialists.... and the reason for that is I do not respond to all traditional treatments the same way a person would with a 100% male or female genetic make up

I do understand that if a person lives for 20 years as a female or a male, they will * forget* that they once were another gender.... and that it becomes a minor issue in their eyes... but to a partner, it can be a major issue and that can cause conflict.....
but it is the same in most relationships, what we deem to be small issues, can be large issues to our partners..... its something that many people in relationships deal with on a daily basis....

personally, I find the term transexual to be impersonal and clinic as it doesn't tell me much about you as a person... and there is far more to a person than a sexuality and a gender

[biguycancun]

The original poster cites an article that's 2 years old, so this isn't "news" Nevertheless it is troubling, but not surprising, given the antediluvian laws and attitudes prevalent in Texas.

I feel sympathy for the woman, and note I call her a woman. But, as with so many other cases, she's decided to dump herself into the fray with a reality TV show. Read the blurb at http://abclocal.go.com/ktrk/story?section=news/local&id=8140271 and here http://blogs.houstonpress.com/hairballs/2011/05/wanna_date_nikki_araguz.php where it states that she's not been able to see her 2 stepsons for 2 years and that she's HIV positive.

And then there's this article about her unfortunate appearance on the Jerry Springer Show in 1995. The woman is doing her best to shoot herself in the foot. Yet I still do feel sympathy for her.

[maxtor]

i wouldnt really care if i fell for the person and found that person was a man rather than a woman i would accept cause i fell for the person and not what was between the legs....we would still have fun just as a woman and man since i am bi then there wouldnt be a problem except for having babies and i am too old to father a baby, not to father one but to keep up with one that come from me with a younger woman....dont need any more kids. i enjoy the hell out of anal sex anyway.

[transcendMental]

personally, I find the term transexual to be impersonal and clinic as it doesn't tell me much about you as a person... and there is far more to a person than a sexuality and a gender

You can say the same of any impersonal clinical term, though. Knowing someone is "schizophrenic" doesn't teell you much about them as a person, either. Neither does knowing they are "bisexual". These words are only meant to describe one aspect of us, and only give one kind of information.

biguycancun, the OP cites an article that is one year old, and she cited it a year ago, so it was news when she started the thread. Recently someone else posted an update regarding the current state of the case, which is why the thread is active now.

[Long Duck Dong]

nods.... for me its in the way that people refer to trans people

I notice it a lot, people say * that person is bisexual, that person is gay / lesbian, that person is a transexual *

or * my partner is bisexual, my partner is gay / lesbian, my partner is a transexual *

I quess a lot of it is in the way we relate to people.... cos we automatically *assign * a role to a person based around a defining statement, and when you say that a person is a transexual, people can struggle to think of them in terms of female or male and see them in terms as something that doesn't make any sense..

I would be inclined to say that its one of the biggest battles for trans people in social settings, and thats that if you refer to a trans person as male or female, people relate immediately, but if you say trans, they don't or can't

[biguycancun]

May 24th: Judge Randy Clapp has just announced his verdict in the Delgado v. Araguz case.

His verdict says that because Nikki Araguz was born a man, Thomas Araguz was not married on the day he died, and any marriage is void.

Undoubtedly, the appeals will drag on for another year or so.

[DuckiesDarling]

You can say the same of any impersonal clinical term, though. Knowing someone is "schizophrenic" doesn't teell you much about them as a person, either. Neither does knowing they are "bisexual". These words are only meant to describe one aspect of us, and only give one kind of information.

biguycancun, the OP cites an article that is one year old, and she cited it a year ago, so it was news when she started the thread. Recently someone else posted an update regarding the current state of the case, which is why the thread is active now.

Thanks TM, I saw the post by biguycancun but couldn't reply at the time as my time on the internet is severely limited. I am saddened by the verdict but not really surprised, I mean Texas is the state that at one point worded something so that NO marriage was valid regardless of the gender of the spouses.

It just seems sometimes that it doesn't matter what you do as trans, you legally change your birth certificate to the gender you transition to and are still told that it is your chromosomes that mean the most to the law. When I first read the case it appeared to be more a he said/she said version of whether or not Thomas knew that Nikki had previously been a male. The way it played out is going to make it harder than ever for trans to actually function in a legal society. It shames me that it happened in America, in a land where we pride ourselves on many freedoms not enjoyed in other countries, this just seems one hell of a slide back down the mountain for a lot of people fighting for the rights of all.:2cents: