Well--it finally happened!

[12voltman59]

I am sure that most of you have heard, read or seen the reports on the fire and destruction of the Deep Horizon oil rig out in the Gulf of Mexico.

There have been lots of calls for opening up more of the US coastal areas to oil drilling, with the need for more oil that our nation faces. It was argued by the industry and supporters of "drill, baby, drill!!!!" that those rigs are safe and pose no signficant environmental threat to coastal areas.

Well that rig caught fire, sank and now --the undersea portions of that thing--some 5,000 feet deep is leaking a major quantity of oil--oil that is now about to make landfall along the coast of Louisiana in a very fragile area that is home to all sorts of wildlilfe and fisheries---that oil threatens to wipe out the fishing, shrimping, crabbing and oyster fisheries along Louisiana for now--with it eventually threatening the coast areas of all the states from Texas to Florida--with the damage to the environment, the beaches, fishing both commercial and recreational with all the damage to the economies of those areas that is going to ensue thanks to large quantities of oil washing ashore.

They say it is going to be months until they can cap the well head down on the sea floor----this is most likely going to wind up being one of the most destructive environmental situations relating to oil in the history of our country---it will dwarf the Exxon Valdez incident since at least that was just the oil of one ship--this is going to be like 400 or 500 Exxon Valdezes over the coming months-----

There is no real point to this post--since the thing has happened and the damage is going to be done----but I do hope that this incident does slow down the push to drill more oil closer to shore all along our coasts---it does go to show that disasters can happen when it comes to drilling oil--and now--unless some extrahuman effort takes place and they get the thing capped off in days or weeks instead of months as they are now saying its going to take---this one situation alone is going to devastate the economies of those coastal states for some time to come.

It sure was nice to have eaten shirmp, oysters and other fish from the Gulf Coast for all these years---those creatures are most likely going to be gone in a matter of days--with their return not going to happen until sometime in the future after the oil has totally cleared the land and sea, but that is probably going to be a long time---it sure is going to destroy tourism on the Gulf Coast and wait till hurricane season!!!

[fredtyg]

It sure was nice to have eaten shirmp, oysters and other fish from the Gulf Coast for all these years---those creatures are most likely going to be gone in a matter of days--

I doubt it. Oil floats. Shouldn't be much of a bother to life below the surface.

[TwylaTwobits]

I'll add a reply later after I've had some sleep... the way I'm yawning I might tell someone to fuck something when I mean fix lol

[Lady_Passion]

^ Really? Check out deadzone maps along the U.S. coastlines and get back to us on that.

[ErosUrge]

I am sure that most of you have heard, read or seen the reports on the fire and destruction of the Deep Horizon oil rig out in the Gulf of Mexico.

There have been lots of calls for opening up more of the US coastal areas to oil drilling, with the need for more oil that our nation faces. It was argued by the industry and supporters of "drill, baby, drill!!!!" that those rigs are safe and pose no signficant environmental threat to coastal areas.

Well that rig caught fire, sank and now --the undersea portions of that thing--some 5,000 feet deep is leaking a major quantity of oil--oil that is now about to make landfall along the coast of Louisiana in a very fragile area that is home to all sorts of wildlilfe and fisheries---that oil threatens to wipe out the fishing, shrimping, crabbing and oyster fisheries along Louisiana for now--with it eventually threatening the coast areas of all the states from Texas to Florida--with the damage to the environment, the beaches, fishing both commercial and recreational with all the damage to the economies of those areas that is going to ensue thanks to large quantities of oil washing ashore.

They say it is going to be months until they can cap the well head down on the sea floor----this is most likely going to wind up being one of the most destructive environmental situations relating to oil in the history of our country---it will dwarf the Exxon Valdez incident since at least that was just the oil of one ship--this is going to be like 400 or 500 Exxon Valdezes over the coming months-----

There is no real point to this post--since the thing has happened and the damage is going to be done----but I do hope that this incident does slow down the push to drill more oil closer to shore all along our coasts---it does go to show that disasters can happen when it comes to drilling oil--and now--unless some extrahuman effort takes place and they get the thing capped off in days or weeks instead of months as they are now saying its going to take---this one situation alone is going to devastate the economies of those coastal states for some time to come.

It sure was nice to have eaten shirmp, oysters and other fish from the Gulf Coast for all these years---those creatures are most likely going to be gone in a matter of days--with their return not going to happen until sometime in the future after the oil has totally cleared the land and sea, but that is probably going to be a long time---it sure is going to destroy tourism on the Gulf Coast and wait till hurricane season!!!

Wow....yes indeed. This to me is one of the saddest moments to happen. Since I am such a lover of the sea and always have been, it hurts deeply. There are no words that can capture the feelings I have about this incident. The only positive thing I can see from all this is that hopefully now our nation will wake up to the hazards of this and get off the bandwagon to drill for more. We've got to come up with a solution for other alternatives....
Once the environment is destroyed, we can forget about all the rest that concerns us. Without a healthy environment, we can't exist either and somehow that connection doesn't seem to register in us. Maybe now that will change. And somehow so many of us don't understand that this is not isolated to only the Gulf of Mexico. Regardless of how large the oceans are, this will impact the entire planet. Already things are out of balance with the health of the seas, and this only adds more to it.
But so true, the impact from this will be for many many years to come and being that I live in Texas, it will have a major impact on the places I have always enjoyed along the coast....I am hurt deeply.
Thanks so much for bringing this to the forefront here as we are all connected with this whether we realize it or not.

[mikey3000]

You can't keep driving those V8 powered SUV's to the mall and to work with out paying a price. Spilled oil and enviromental catastrophies are that price. Chuck thuse useless SUV's and reduce your dependence on oil. That's a good place to start.:eek:

[MarieDelta]

Man always thinks his tech is perfect , doesnt he?

But things break & accidents happen...

[shybipinay]

Man always thinks his tech is perfect , doesnt he?

But things break & accidents happen...

Yes, that's why we have oxymorons like "Micorsoft Works".

Absolutely tragic. It's hard to imagine one Exxon Valdez, let alone 400-500. Maybe it's time to really focus on solar and wind power.

[Cherokee_Mountaincat]

I dont grieve for the loss of the oil for peoples uses, I grieve for the loss of wildlife and sealife. :(

Yes Mikey, oil floats but it also disapaites Outward and will poision anything in its perimiter for Spirits knows how far once it hits the currents. Did you think it was going to rise straight up and stay in one spot? No sarcasm meant there, btw. So take no offense, please. :}

This fishing industry there is ruined for a long while and like Voltie said, the shrimping iand other shellfish industry is over for now. They can set fire to the oil on the water to try and clear it up, but what about the toxins and acrid smoke resulting from that burning? Not to mention the people close by that are going to feel the effects from this too...
Sea birds and other marine animals are going to suffer from this for a long time. All because of man's intrusions. Extremely sad....:(
Nature loving Cat

[ErosUrge]

You can't keep driving those V8 powered SUV's to the mall and to work with out paying a price. Spilled oil and enviromental catastrophies are that price. Chuck thuse useless SUV's and reduce your dependence on oil. That's a good place to start.:eek:

So very true.....so caught up in the whirlwind of this atrocity but the blame lies within our everyday choices. I couldn't agree more or less....thanks Mikey.

[mikey3000]

Yes Mikey, oil floats but it also disapaites Outward and will poision anything in its perimiter for Spirits knows how far once it hits the currents. Did you think it was going to rise straight up and stay in one spot? No sarcasm meant there, btw. So take no offense, please. :}

Nature loving Cat
No offense Cat, but it wasn't me who said oil floats. I know very well the damage that crude oil does to the enviroment. I traded my big ass V8 Lincoln in for a Hyundai years ago and buy all my produce locally grown. I walk to the local farmer's market (right around the corner :bigrin:) walk to the doctor's, the hospital, and make my kids walk to school (20 minutes for them). I laugh when I see all my neighbours driving their Mercedes and Bimmers to drop their kids off around the block at school. I don't even have A/C at home. I really do try my best to do my share to protect our planet. I wish everyone else did too. :2cents:

[MarieDelta]

Here is some more information:


UPDATE 12 - Deepwater Horizon Update
The unified command continues with a comprehensive oil well intervention and spill-response plan following the April 22 sinking of the Transocean Deepwater Horizon drilling rig 130 miles southeast of New Orleans. More than 1,000 personnel are involved in the response effort both on and offshore with additional resources being mobilized as needed.

The Minerals Management Service remains in contact with all oil and gas operators in the sheen area. Currently, no production has been curtailed as a result of the response effort.


Incident Facts:

A flyover on Wednesday, April 28 at 2:00 p.m. (CDT), continued to show a large, rainbow sheen with areas of emulsified crude, approximately 16 miles off the coast of Louisiana.

On April 28 at approximately 4:45 p.m. (CDT), the response team conducted a successful controlled burn and is evaluating conducting additional burns.


More than 174,060 feet of boom (barrier) has been assigned to contain the spill. An additional 243,260 feet is available and 265,460 feet has been ordered.

To date, the oil spill response team has recovered 18,180 barrels (763,560 gallons) of an oil-water mix. Vessels are in place and continuing recovery operations.

76 response vessels are being used including skimmers, tugs, barges and recovery vessels.

98,361 gallons of dispersant have been deployed and an additional 75,000 gallons are available.

Five staging areas are in place and ready to protect sensitive shorelines. These areas include:

Biloxi, Miss., Pensacola, Fla. Venice, La., Pascagoula, Miss., and Theodore, Ala.
Weather conditions for April 29 - Winds from the southeast at 5-15 mph, choppy rough seas.


126 people were on the Deepwater Horizon drilling rig when the incident occurred. 11 remain unaccounted for; 17 were injured, 3 of them critically. 1 injured person remains in the hospital.


http://www.deepwaterhorizonresponse.com/go/doc/2931/533695/

[Hephaestion]

Many thanks to all who have posted the information on the incident and its progress.

.

[tenni]

Marie made a very important statement when it comes to the environment. People assume and believe that technology will save us. It is simple to write that living in harmony will work as an approach and the technology will not solve an issue created by technology. It seems logical but I fear that our issues are a bit too complex and we demand too many "goodies" to ever do that. Sorry, Mikey to be a pessimist but buying local produce does seem like a good idea if we can really be sure that it is local produce and in our case that we are willing to do without in winter. I was surprised to find that a lot if not most of the produce at my local market was from away. I've heard that buying organic is full of problems both health wise and nutritionally. Someone is always willing to take a "buzz" hot theory and exploit it. I do think that it is better to try though.

I've heard that the environmental problems of the Exxon Valdez are still not resolved after all these years.

[darkeyes]

I doubt it. Oil floats. Shouldn't be much of a bother to life below the surface.

Possibly so.. but if and when the oil makes landfall there will be wholsesale destruction of wildlife habitat.. birds, shellfish, sea mammals and yes fish will almost certainly be affected disasterously... and even while still at sea it will still kill off many marine animals, so don't be so complacent hun... it is a serious threat and it has happened before and will unfortunately almost certainly happen again.. yet another of mankind's periodical eco disasters...

[MarieDelta]

Possibly so.. but if and when the oil makes landfall there will be wholsesale destruction of wildlife habitat.. birds, shellfish, sea mammals and yes fish will almost certainly be affected disasterously... and even while still at sea it will still kill off many marine animals, so don't be so complacent hun... it is a serious threat and it has happened before and will unfortunately almost certainly happen again.. yet another of mankind's periodical eco disasters...

Plus there are other chemicals in the oil as well. Crude oil is not just *oil* and *gasoline*

Crude oils vary in color, from clear to tar-black, and in viscosity, from water to almost solid.

So whike *some* of it floats there are other things that seep into the water as well, poisoning various wildlife, etc...

[TwylaTwobits]

I've been following this on the news and I'm of two minds: Shit Happens during progress and OMG this is gonna cause problems with the environment for years to come.

The water, the coast, the wildlife everything will be affected by this and it will possibly be just as devestating as Hurricane Katrina. Only no media weathermen are gonna be on tracking the progress and warning residents.

They have several booms they will be using to attempt to control the oil slick but it will not be an easy job and it will not be over quickly. They have been recovering oil as well, so it might not be a total loss.

But I do not believe we need to ignore pursuing our natural resources when we are a nation billions of dollars into debt to others for the very thing they were searching for right here at home.

[Krys80]

Personally I don't think SUV's are gonna destroy the planet but I get what you mean. It's the excessive wasting Americans tend to do. Not all of us of course but generally speaking. We consume way more than we will ever need. The fact is we don't even need to be dependent on oil at the level we are anymore, but hey that's big business. We can run cars on rainwater for goodness sake. Between water, solar, and wind we wouldn't need need oil for anything others than plastics really. But we aren't rich and have no say so in how this country moves forward. I think that has been made apparent. And now all these people and the ecosystems down south will suffer for the greed of a few.

[12voltman59]

An article on this topic I just came across:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/36850248/ns/us_news-environment/

[TwylaTwobits]

Already, a federal class-action lawsuit has been filed on behalf of two commercial shrimpers from Louisiana seeking at least $5 million in compensatory damages plus an unspecified amount of punitive damages against Transocean, BP and other companies linked to the rig blast.

Hmm... didn't take long for the vultures to come out to play now did it? If they are that concerned they can apply themselves to volunteering to go and help the containment operation instead of intending to profit from a disaster.

[NEPHX]

.... I don't even have A/C at home.
but you live in Ontario, Canada! If you had no heat, I'd be impressed! :)

[12voltman59]

Hmm... didn't take long for the vultures to come out to play now did it? If they are that concerned they can apply themselves to volunteering to go and help the containment operation instead of intending to profit from a disaster.

I don 't hardly think that that shrmpers along the gulf coast are "vultures' by filing a suit against BP and the rest of those who ran that rig---for the next few days the states of Louisiana, Texas, Mississippi and Alabama are going to have an open season for shrimpers and oystermen to get as much as they can before the oil comes ashore--I heard a report tonight that said that once the oil gets ashore----and hits the marshes that hatch the shrimp and other creatures--it will probably be several decades at least until the fisheries return and are safe to eat. So--by no fault of their own---the shrimpers are out of business--most of them have big time payments on their boats they owe to the banks and companies that specialize in commercial marine financing----they are going to be worse than broke---as far as suing the oil companies--I sure as hell would sue them to if they put me out of business!!

Think of all the people who work ashore in the seafood companies and all the restaurants that rely on local seafood as their main source of food supply----it is going to destroy that industry----if this oil gets to the panhandle of Florida---so much for the pure white, sugar sand beaches that are their claim to fame--the economic aspects of this disaster will be uncalcuable---a whole number of industries along the gulf coast from Aransas Pass Texas to the Florida Keys are in danger thanks to this----beacause they say its going to take most of the summer to get that well capped off and over that time--the wind will blow oil in all directions. It will eventually make its way into the Atlantic too and then there is the issue of some cities like Tampa that use sea water to make fresh water--that will mess up the desalinator systems that cost billions of dollars and supply drinking water for the Tampa St Pete area-a metro area of around a million or so people.

They better hope that the oil doesn't make it over there

[Lady_Passion]

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=oceanic-dead-zones-spread


News - August 15, 2008

Oceanic Dead Zones Continue to Spread
Fertilizer runoff and fossil-fuel use lead to massive areas in the ocean with scant or no oxygen, killing large swaths of sea life and causing hundreds of millions of dollars in damage
By David Biello


More bad news for the world's oceans: Dead zones—areas of bottom waters too oxygen depleted to support most ocean life—are spreading, dotting nearly the entire east and south coasts of the U.S. as well as several west coast river outlets.

According to a new study in Science, the rest of the world fares no better—there are now 405 identified dead zones worldwide, up from 49 in the 1960s—and the world's largest dead zone remains the Baltic Sea, whose bottom waters now lack oxygen year-round.

Click here to see a map of dead zones around the world.

This is no small economic matter. A single low-oxygen event (known scientifically as hypoxia) off the coasts of New York State and New Jersey in 1976 covering a mere 385 square miles (1,000 square kilometers) of seabed ended up costing commercial and recreational fisheries in the region more than $500 million. As it stands, roughly 83,000 tons (75,000 metric tons) of fish and other ocean life are lost to the Chesapeake Bay dead zone each year—enough to feed half the commercial crab catch for a year.

"More than 212,000 metric tons [235,000 tons] of food is lost to hypoxia in the Gulf of Mexico," says marine biologist Robert Diaz of The College of William & Mary in Williamsburg, Va., who surveyed the dead zones along with marine ecologist Rutger Rosenberg of the University of Gothenburg in Sweden. "That's enough to feed 75 percent of the average brown shrimp harvest from the Louisiana gulf. If there was no hypoxia and there was that much more food, don't you think the shrimp and crabs would be happier? They would certainly be fatter."

Only a few dead zones have ever recovered, such as the Black Sea, which rebounded quickly in the 1990s with the collapse of the Soviet Union and a massive reduction in fertilizer runoff from fields in Russia and Ukraine. Fertilizer contains large amounts of nitrogen, and it runs off of agricultural fields in water and into rivers, and eventually into oceans.

This fertilizer runoff, instead of contributing to more corn or wheat, feeds massive algae blooms in the coastal oceans. This algae, in turn, dies and sinks to the bottom where it is consumed by microbes, which consume oxygen in the process. More algae means more oxygen-burning, and thereby less oxygen in the water, resulting in a massive flight by those fish, crustaceans and other ocean-dwellers able to relocate as well as the mass death of immobile creatures, such as clams or other bottom-dwellers. And that's when the microbes that thrive in oxygen-free environments take over, forming vast bacterial mats that produce hydrogen sulfide, a toxic gas.

"The primary culprit in marine environments is nitrogen and, nowadays, the biggest contributor of nitrogen to marine systems is agriculture. It's the same scenario all over the world," Diaz says. "Farmers are not doing it on purpose. They'd prefer to have it stick on the land."

In addition to fertilizers, the other primary culprit is the consumption of fossil fuels. Burning gasoline and diesel results in smog-forming nitrogen oxides, which subsequently clear when rain washes the nitrogen out of the sky and, ultimately, into the ocean.

Technological improvements, such as electric or hydrogen cars, could solve that problem but the agricultural question is trickier. "Nitrogen is very slippery; it's very difficult to keep it on land," Diaz notes. "We need to find a technology to keep nitrogen from leaving the soil."

Or farmers can reduce the overall amount of nitrogen required by employing new biotechnologies, such as the nitrogen use efficiency (NUE) improvements offered by Arcadia Biosciences. By engineering crops to overexpress a gene that allows roots to absorb more nitrogen, Arcadia scientists have shown that "it's possible for NUE crops to produce the same yield with half as much fertilizer," president and CEO, Eric Rey, says. "In canola, we saw a two-thirds reduction."

Seeds bearing the technology have already been licensed to agricultural giants Monsanto Company and Dupont's Pioneer Hi-Bred International in the case of canola and corn, respectively—and even grass seed from Scotts Miracle-Gro Company may one day employ it. Although field trials over the last four years have proved the genetic changes effectiveness, further testing and government approval means that such crops will not be grown before 2012.

"It's a big economic benefit for farmers if they use only half as much nitrogen as well a big beneficial impact on nitrogen runoff into waterways," says Rey, who hopes that this product will be adopted as quickly as herbicide-resistant crops, which only took five years from introduction in 1998 to become nearly 70 percent of the corn grown in the U.S., and is now nearly 90 percent. "A reasonable expectation is that there would be a dramatic reduction, maybe by 2018."

But that still might not solve the dead zone problem. So much nitrogen is now reaching these coastal waters that much of it ends up buried in sediment, Diaz says, even when new nitrogen sources are removed those sediments release that nitrogen over time, perpetuating the cycle.

That inability to recover is driven not only by the nitrogen buried in the sediment but also by water layers that don't mix with one another, despite the massive flow of rivers like the Mississippi. Instead, warmer, fresher water on the surface sits on top of cooler, denser, saltier water and it takes the energy of multiple powerful hurricanes to blend the two.

For example, as Hurricane Katrina bore down on the Louisiana coast with its powerful winds blowing faster than 130 miles (210 kilometers) per hour, the monstrous tropical storm delivered a benefit: it mixed the warm, oxygen-rich surface waters with the colder, almost oxygen-free waters beneath, dispelling the largest dead zone in the U.S. for a time. Hurricane Rita followed and finished the work, ending early the seasonal dead zone that forms each year at the mouth of the Mississippi.

That dead zone—which last year stretched over roughly 8,500 square miles (22,000 square kilometers), an area the size of New Jersey, and is predicted to grow even more extensive in 2008, thanks to the early summer floods—forms because of the rich load of nitrogen and phosphorus the Mississippi carries down from the farm fields of the U.S. Midwest.

Hoping for hurricanes is neither popular nor sensible, so scientists in the Baltic Sea nations, desperate for solutions, are considering so-called geoengineering options: large-scale human interventions into natural systems. In this case, air would be bubbled into some of the smaller bays to assess what happens. "If you look at agricultural ponds, you can aerate them to prevent low oxygen," Diaz says. "But that's a pond. We're talking about open systems with tides. The water doesn't just stay there."

Ultimately, it may take revolutions in agriculture and transportation, along with the energy of hurricanes to bring life back to dead zones. "If you can't mix a dead zone with the energy of a hurricane," Diaz adds, "I don't see how geoengineering is going to do it."

http://www.scientificamerican.com/media/inline/2008-08-15_bigMap.jpg

[TwylaTwobits]

I don 't hardly think that that shrmpers along the gulf coast are "vultures' by filing a suit against BP and the rest of those who ran that rig---for the next few days the states of Louisiana, Texas, Mississippi and Alabama are going to have an open season for shrimpers and oystermen to get as much as they can before the oil comes ashore--I heard a report tonight that said that once the oil gets ashore----and hits the marshes that hatch the shrimp and other creatures--it will probably be several decades at least until the fisheries return and are safe to eat. So--by no fault of their own---the shrimpers are out of business--most of them have big time payments on their boats they owe to the banks and companies that specialize in commercial marine financing----they are going to be worse than broke---as far as suing the oil companies--I sure as hell would sue them to if they put me out of business!!

Think of all the people who work ashore in the seafood companies and all the restaurants that rely on local seafood as their main source of food supply----it is going to destroy that industry----if this oil gets to the panhandle of Florida---so much for the pure white, sugar sand beaches that are their claim to fame--the economic aspects of this disaster will be uncalcuable---a whole number of industries along the gulf coast from Aransas Pass Texas to the Florida Keys are in danger thanks to this----beacause they say its going to take most of the summer to get that well capped off and over that time--the wind will blow oil in all directions. It will eventually make its way into the Atlantic too and then there is the issue of some cities like Tampa that use sea water to make fresh water--that will mess up the desalinator systems that cost billions of dollars and supply drinking water for the Tampa St Pete area-a metro area of around a million or so people.

They better hope that the oil doesn't make it over there


Volt, at this point they have lost nothing so yeah they are opportunistic vultures. Hey Bubba let's sue so we can pay off that boat and then sit on our asses. You make good points about the economy, but who's pocket is being lined with that lawsuit? Not all the people you mentioned. So they are no better than the people who jacked gas prices up after Katrina. Vultures. There is still plenty of time for the containment team to work on this. They are trying. Going ahead and predicting doom now is a bit like putting the cart before the horse. There will be an environmental impact but absolutely no one at this point in time can accurately predict the impact nor can they project the losses to businesses in the future.

[djones]

You can't keep driving those V8 powered SUV's to the mall and to work with out paying a price. Spilled oil and enviromental catastrophies are that price. Chuck thuse useless SUV's and reduce your dependence on oil. That's a good place to start.:eek:

I love my MINI ! And I always find parking too !

[Alaskan Couple]

I doubt it. Oil floats. Shouldn't be much of a bother to life below the surface.

This comment shows a gross lack of even a rudimentary knowledge of marine biology. Virtually all sea life depends on the estuaries along the shoreline at some point in their life/reproductive cycle (either directly or indirectly for food source life forms). When estuaries and inland streams become polluted, the effects are far reaching and not fully understood. Further, all life on this planet is ultimately linked - at some point we will go one step too far in our destruction and endanger our own existence. At some point in this game of life, "modern" societies will either re-think our abusive attitudes of raping the earth in the name of "progress and profit" - or the Earth will simply purge itself of one more vermin parasite species (e.g. humans!)


No offense Cat, but it wasn't me who said oil floats. I know very well the damage that crude oil does to the enviroment. I traded my big ass V8 Lincoln in for a Hyundai years ago and buy all my produce locally grown. I walk to the local farmer's market (right around the corner :bigrin:) walk to the doctor's, the hospital, and make my kids walk to school (20 minutes for them). I laugh when I see all my neighbours driving their Mercedes and Bimmers to drop their kids off around the block at school. I don't even have A/C at home. I really do try my best to do my share to protect our planet. I wish everyone else did too. :2cents:

While this is admirable and everyone should do what they can, unfortunately the larger "system" of our advanced (?) societies prevents any real meaningful change. Unfortunately there is a majority of the population that believes that they have the right to take whatever they can get - regardless of the impact to the environment. These folks just are not enlightened to the spiritual connectivity within all of creation. They view the Earth as a dead rock to be pillaged, mined and stripped bare for their own private gain during their pitiful short years of existence. Sadly, the business and governmental leadership (leadership may be an oxymoron) - anyway, the "leadership" such as it is in our modern societies, have only one thing at the top of their agenda - PROFITS!!! And until we have true leadership that has a wholistic view toward the way to live in harmony with our host planet - until that time comes, no large change in the way we live will be available. Our small efforts will do little except make us feel better about ourselves (and that too is a worthwhile thing - but not enough I fear)



...I've heard that the environmental problems of the Exxon Valdez are still not resolved after all these years.

You heard right! The impacted areas of the Alaskan coastline (especially portions of Prince William Sound) have never recovered to their former abundance and there is no way to know how many years (or eons) it will take to do so. The loss of habitat on a microbial level appears to be causing far reaching shifts in home ranges of several species. As species move away from the ruined breeding/feeding grounds, they in turn impact other species. I guess I'll beat this drum one more time; we (mankind, science, experts) do not know the impact our every action has on microscopic (and even sub-microscopic) life. Each time the EPA says its okay to spray that weed killer - we need to remind ourselves what's really happening - we are poisoning life - we only have eyes that can see the dead "weed", but we have also killed other life that is important to the health of our planet.... and this is just one small example of the tremendous impact we are having! (take the weed killer as an example; we by our small one quart jug and it seems not such a huge impact. But, if we could see the thousands of gallons that were produced and sold and ultimately sprayed, we would be shocked at the environmental contamination. And again, this is but one small thing we do).

[Delilah]

I live on the gulf and already it's effecting our air. We are having issues with the stench and it's unbearable.

A lot of these shrimpers and fishermens are friends of mine. They are hard working men and women who will lose everything they work hard for. While people enjoy their lavish seafood festivity, think about who made that possible.

[void()]

This is something which really is funny in a certain light. Let me elucidate my point of view before misunderstanding it.

There are lots and lots of God fearing Christians in Texas and around the coasts. And we as a race have this nice way to record mistakes, called history. So, I find it funny that Christians will not learn from past mistakes, even from their own dogma. Recall the tower of Babylon? But heck no, we'll just keep running those oil and gas guzzling pieces of crap. We'll have holy wars in the name of attaining oil, destroy our planet to get it, too.

When Desert Storm happened folks wondered about Hussein's choice of lighting up the oil fields. It's common Roman strategy called poisoning the well, it was also sheer military genius on his part. The U.S. wanted the oil, screw it, let it burn before they get it. And as a side effect we got boys coming home so messed up they can't see straight. But no one ever learns from history, or past mistakes.

So, yeah I find it hilarious any more. You know what, you daft religious freaks go on and kill one another off, let us non-religious folks be. We'll try to do make do with what ya'll leave in the wake.

[12voltman59]

Twyla--I don't see your point--the fact is that once that oil--now washing ashore in Lousiana---the coastal areas of the southesast coast are very fragile---with all the chemicals in that crude oil that is so toxic---it is simply going to destroy those areas---those areas that are where everything in the ocean begins life from the plankton, to shrimp, crab, oysters, fish of all kinds up to sharks and the dolphins/porpoises----

They know that this stuff is going to hit the beach --why should they have had to wait for it too happen----most of those guys who fish for whatver types they go for----they are only a few weeks away of not having income untill they owe all kinds of people----when you fish---you not only have to pay for your boat--and of course the things on land you own like your cars, trucks and home----you probably owe on credit for things like all your gear, the diesel fuel, things of that nature----under the circumstances----many creditors may give them a break for a time--but eventually--they will want their money. You can try to sell your boat to get out from under that payment----but then again--with an entire industry possibly dead----who is gonna buy all those boats for sale???????

For most of those people who fish----they don't know how to do much else---they are quite often third or fourth generation fishing people----many didn't get much education.

In a crappy economy----it is hard enough if you are qualified to get a job----these folks don't often have skils that are marketable for other jobs--and many are older--like in their 40s and up--so that is another problem.

Now--let us hope and PRAY that this situation doesn't become the big potentially enviormental and economic disaster that it threatens to be---and that they do stop the leaks very, very soon--but that is not really likely apparently.

Court cases like this take lots of time to work out and even if those people get money from BP--it will be years from now--and hell--the lives of those people will already have been destroyed!!! Many of those guys, they might not even be alive when the money does come----and if the situation does let up and isn't that bad afterall--they can and most likely will---back out of it.

I cannot even imagine what this is going to to the Gulf Coast--this situation has the possiblity of destroying the environment, the lives of untold creatures and many, many people.

It makes me totally sick to my stomach!!

Here is a link that the State of Georgia has that talks about the Coastal Marshes in that state--but what they say about those marshes---holds true for the same sorts of areas in the Gulf Coast states as well:

http://crd.dnr.state.ga.us/content/displaycontent.asp?txtDocument=22

The toxins found in crude oil will kill the salt marsh grasses---kill the grases, kill the fish--kill the fish---kill the ocean---kill the ocean and kill ......!!!

[TwylaTwobits]

Volt, my point is simple. If only the people who file the suit get the money then it does no good for the entire economy which as you pointed out will have issues. It is much to early to tell exactly when they can cap the well and how much oil they can recover and how much they can manage to clean up before it goes anywhere near the coastline.

I am not denying there will be an impact I'm just saying that right now it's too freaking early to be launching a lawsuit at a corporation still stunned by the loss of their men, the oil spill itself and their own personal consciences. That's why I termed the filing of it as vultures hovering. Sorry if that offends you but that's how I see the people who only think of themselves and don't give a damn about the people who's lives have been lost, the men who are missing and the people fighting their damnedest now to keep this from getting worse.

[Lady_Passion]

I'm wondering how this will affect the Kyoto Agreement. There's already enough "I'm not gonna clean it up" by the U.S. going on. This oil will not stay put. Rather it will be caught up and spread via currents. This is not as local to the U.S. as it appears.

[TwylaTwobits]

And with all this talk about the environment and lingering impact of Exxon Valdez, I am surprised no one has mentioned that Putin order barrels of Soviet oil removed from the Artic. http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/europe/3642782/Putin-orders-Arctic-clear-up


The oil is now oozing ashore down south and I pray that they are able to minimize the impact on the environment and the animals.

[12voltman59]

Volt, my point is simple. If only the people who file the suit get the money then it does no good for the entire economy which as you pointed out will have issues. It is much to early to tell exactly when they can cap the well and how much oil they can recover and how much they can manage to clean up before it goes anywhere near the coastline.

I am not denying there will be an impact I'm just saying that right now it's too freaking early to be launching a lawsuit at a corporation still stunned by the loss of their men, the oil spill itself and their own personal consciences. That's why I termed the filing of it as vultures hovering. Sorry if that offends you but that's how I see the people who only think of themselves and don't give a damn about the people who's lives have been lost, the men who are missing and the people fighting their damnedest now to keep this from getting worse.

Twyla--I am not offended or anything--just that the reality of the way the federal court system is---a case filed now---depending on the federal district court the case is going to be heard----may not even be scheduled for much more than pretrial conferences and such this year--with the actual case not getting underway until sometime well into 2011 or even 2012--so why wait to start the process???

Let us hope that this whole thing just winds up being not much at all-and if that is the case---a guy who is a shrimper would much rather be out on the water doing his thing and not spending time in a foreign and scary world like a federal courtroom!!

If this situation doesn't pan out to be so bad----those folks will drop the case I am sure--but this thing does have the potential of wreaking so much havoc.

You can be sure--I bet those fishermen are going out to help work on the boats that are doing the skimming--most of the guys who work those boats often come from the same communities that the shrmpers, crabbers, fishermen and oystermen live.

In filing the case at this point--to me it doesn't make those guys some sort of money grubbing people hoping for a big payoff--they are people who are trying to keep their way of lilfe and if not for the disaster--they would not be suing anyone--they are literally---fighting for their lives!!! At least in an economic and historical ways.

This disaster is going to destroy their lives in a matter of days!!!

They won't get any relief from the courts for years!!

There is one thing that you said that did "offend me" it was that you called them "vultures" for filing their suits. I do strongly disagree with that characterizaton of them.

I did some working on the decks of shrimp boats myself when I was a young man in Savannah and I even had my own boat for a time, (just a little center counsole "jumker" outboard powered boat--not a big diesel powered shrimp boat that costs hundreds of thousands of dollars), that I used for a time fishing for blue crab in the waters around Savannah--so I do know what it is to try to make your living from fishing to some small degree---now---I did it only in the summer and used the money to help pay for college and gave it up once I had left college to join the Coast Guard---but there is something to that sort of life---it is hard way to make a living but it is a good, honest way to make a living and for those who do it---that is all they want to do and all they know how to do!!

Thanks to this disaster--untold numbers of people are now threatened with having their lives totally destroyed. For an older person doing it--they will never fish again because if this thing goes out to be a worst case scenario---it will be decades before you will be able to fish those waters again and many of those folks don't have enough days left in their lives to ever recover.

I can tell ya Twyla--if I were still doing that--damn right I would be suing someone myself----I'd be suing anyone who has anything to do with this deal, hoping that among all the cases going --we'd all get every last dime from the responsible parties for this disaster!!! I guess I would be a vulture too then!!!!

[darkeyes]

Volt, my point is simple. If only the people who file the suit get the money then it does no good for the entire economy which as you pointed out will have issues. It is much to early to tell exactly when they can cap the well and how much oil they can recover and how much they can manage to clean up before it goes anywhere near the coastline.

I am not denying there will be an impact I'm just saying that right now it's too freaking early to be launching a lawsuit at a corporation still stunned by the loss of their men, the oil spill itself and their own personal consciences. That's why I termed the filing of it as vultures hovering. Sorry if that offends you but that's how I see the people who only think of themselves and don't give a damn about the people who's lives have been lost, the men who are missing and the people fighting their damnedest now to keep this from getting worse.

I will say a law suit was always an inevitability and not just from those who may or may not have their business affected.. I am surprised at just how fast things have developed and will admit to finding it somewhat in bad taste.. I am not sure that I would call it vultures hovering as yet, but that may prove to be the case.. how a law suit can be launched while as yet the world is unsure of the facts of the disaster I don't know, but I am not a legal eagle and even for the US there does seem to have been an almighty rush to litigate..

Having said that little lot, I doubt the company bosses are losing much sleep at the deaths of their employees.. they may over loss of a rig and loss of production and so loss of profit.. and I have no doubt they will be looking at some nice little man or even a few nice little men, as likely as not dead, to take the rap.. they will be much too busy trying to find out what went wrong so that they can deny anything went wrong and cover up their own inadequacies to worry about people dying. They will be doing so to avoid wholesale revamps of their remaining rigs, possible delays in production elsewhere, minimising payouts to the families of dead and to the injured, avoiding fines and possible criminal charges for negligence.. in general they will be too worried in covering their arses to lose sleep at the deaths of a few men.

Litigation will follow I am sure.. and I hope the company gets itself well and truly screwed and made to realise its responsibilities (in this I have my doubts).. I hope the families of the dead make a mint at their expense.. though this is poor recompense for the loss of a loved one.. I hope once facts are know the entire industry sits up and makes itself much more safe... in this I have my doubts also but I hope.. I may think a rush to litigate is in bad taste.. but I do not think that in time well considered litigatation can be avoided once the facts are known... and nor should it be..

[darkeyes]

BP own the oil, an American company own and operate the rig on their behalf.. and another American company were (some claim) capping the well head with sub standard cement (although how anyone knows this must be anyones guess). BP say they do not know what went wrong. Wow..really? Isnt that a surprise... please await the investigation... gosh..am shocked to hear that also.. well thats the first part of my expectations met anyway... now I await the blame game... now just what were the names of those who died again??? :rolleyes:

O Fran... u are dreadful at times......

[12voltman59]

The following is the copy of an email I got from a person who specializes in coastal issues for the Environmental Defense Fund:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

To: Friends and Colleagues
Fr: Paul Harrison
Re: Another Disaster for Coastal Louisiana

Dear Friends and Colleagues,

It is with a beleaguered and heavy heart I write this note to update you on the situation along the Gulf Coast.

News accounts can hardly do justice to the epic human and environmental tragedy that is unfolding in the wake of last week's oil platform explosion. In spite of all the efforts to contain the spill and prevent its spread, the leading edge of the oil spill has made landfall.

At its current leak rate of 5,000 barrels of oil per day, the spill could surpass the size of the 1969 Santa Barbara spill by next week. If the leak cannot be contained, it could exceed the size of the 1989 Exxon Valdez oil spill off Alaska by mid June.

An impact of this magnitude would devastate wildlife and coastal communities and villages, many of whom rely heavily on natural resources of the Louisiana coast to sustain their economy and to feed their families. It is especially sad that this catastrophe threatens the fishing communities of the Gulf that have become national leaders in transforming oceans fisheries to sustainability.

For communities and wildlife along the Gulf Coast, this blow could set back all the tireless efforts since Katrina to fight for programs and funding to restore Coastal Louisiana to its natural health.

In February, we won a huge victory when President Obama asked Congress to fund for the first time construction of large-scale coastal restoration projects, a landmark investment that at long last offered hope that our vision could be achieved.

Now, Gulf Coast communities confront a new disaster from which we will have to recover.

This crisis almost couldn't come at a worse time. It appears that the oil slick will most directly devastate the salt marshes and the species that rely on them along the coast -- including hundreds of migratory bird species that are nesting and breeding as we speak. This area also produces 50 percent of the nation's wild shrimp crop, 35 percent of its blue claw crabs and 40 percent of its oysters.

At this point, we are doing everything possible to coordinate with our colleagues at National Audubon, NWF, Coalition to Restore Coastal Louisiana, Lake Pontchartrain Basin Foundation, the Gulf Restoration Network, and others – as well as our coastal community contacts – to monitor the extent of the damage and provide whatever support we can.

For those who are interested in doing what you can to help, please go to the Coalition To Restore Coastal Louisiana website where you can sign up to volunteer.

Now is a very tough time for coastal restoration advocates and all the communities with whom we have worked so closely.

We hope and pray that this devastation is limited and that we will be able to work with federal, state, and local officials and impacted communities to mitigate the damage, prevent future disasters, and clean up and restore the coast as soon as possible.

Thank you for your concern and support,
Paul Harrison


To clarifiy a point I made in the OP----while the actual amount of oil that came from the Exxon Valdez was huge, I didn't realize just how large it was since they have said how much was in that ship in recent new stories--that is amazing they pack so much oil in one of those things!!--and its going to take time for this to get to that level--I was a bit wrong to say in terms of the amount of oil that this might be hundreds of times worse than Exxon Valdez--but I was more thinking of the size of the area this one might well affect could be huge, hitting places all along the Gulf Coast and if it lasts long enough---it could go even beyond that to at least some degree----this stuff has to go somewhere.

[clovermoon]

PANIC PANIC PANIC How many oil wells are there in the world? How many have had this happen? At least wait to see why there was an explosion before you freak out.

Live without oil, set the example....I dare ya

[Alaskan Couple]

Regarding "Vultures" and such...

The Exxon Valdez incident occurred on March 24, 1989.

The first phases of the "final payment" of court awarded damages occurred in late 2009. That's a 20 year delay in compensating those who lost their livelihood due to Exxon's misconduct and negligence!!! And, Exxon is still challenging the payment of interest earned on the award for those 20 years!

Further, the 507.5 million settlement was a reduced amount and was a fraction of the jury awarded damages of 5 billion. (a bit of political influence never hurts -eh?)

Also, the final penalty is about 1/5 of the 2.5 billion dollar cost of cleaning up their mess (although I will concede that Exxon ponied up substantial funds in the effort to stop the damage).

So.... when we speak of vultures, my thoughts turn to those black suited men perched high in corporate penthouses... To say the hard working fishermen/women and the legal representatives who help them are the "vultures" is beyond my comprehension.

And just a final thought; being from Alaska I know many people who were impacted by this tragedy. And I can assure anyone who is willing to listen, the delayed settlements did virtually nothing to stop their immediate loss (and some of the older victims did not even live the 20 years to ever see it). And the dead and dying waters of a once pristine wilderness...and all of God's creatures who lived there...well, they didn't get a thin dime.

[Alaskan Couple]

BUT, all of this talk about Vultures, lawsuits and such is really not the point.

What this tragedy should trigger is a national - nay, a multi-national conversation towards a real solution to man's unbridled destruction of our environment. Until all people wake up and accept the fact that we as a species are living in an unsustainable manner - and make the personal and corporate sacrifices needed to correct that - until we get serious, then this will just be one more stepping stone towards the point of no return.

And here I lay the burden of responsibility on the backs of the of the major multi-national corporations. For it is they who have amassed the true power to control governments, and thus to form and fashion the way we shall all live.

The real question becomes; Are they (and we) willing to pay the price for protecting our home planet? Greed is a powerful sickness, and I have my doubts that enough will have the willpower to try and be cured of their sickness. If they (we) don't, our profits will prove to be short term and our future loss will be great. The saying holds true; "You will reap what you sow."

[richarddennis]

I an not an advocate of BigOil, I feel that OPEC in general and the mid east have taken too much of our time and resources to keep those puppet govts running.

I'd like to see nuclear/solar/wind/nonFoodethanols get the same tax breaks/incentives as we now give BigOil.

Renewable resources are the answer to most global financial problems and building jobs inside your country, instead of oursourching the middle classes to mostly Communist China seems to be a waste.

Worse yet, the USA has financed two middle eastern wars with funds from Communist China, that's a insult to our brave military!

Thinking the oil drilled off shore or in pristine environments is the only way to go is the reason for these oil related disasters, where there is never enough time or $ to protect anything but the bottom line of immense greed.

[Darkside2009]

This is something which really is funny in a certain light. Let me elucidate my point of view before misunderstanding it.

There are lots and lots of God fearing Christians in Texas and around the coasts. And we as a race have this nice way to record mistakes, called history. So, I find it funny that Christians will not learn from past mistakes, even from their own dogma. Recall the tower of Babylon? But heck no, we'll just keep running those oil and gas guzzling pieces of crap. We'll have holy wars in the name of attaining oil, destroy our planet to get it, too.

When Desert Storm happened folks wondered about Hussein's choice of lighting up the oil fields. It's common Roman strategy called poisoning the well, it was also sheer military genius on his part. The U.S. wanted the oil, screw it, let it burn before they get it. And as a side effect we got boys coming home so messed up they can't see straight. But no one ever learns from history, or past mistakes.

So, yeah I find it hilarious any more. You know what, you daft religious freaks go on and kill one another off, let us non-religious folks be. We'll try to do make do with what ya'll leave in the wake.

I find this post of yours utterly bizarre, Void. How you can find humour in the deaths of oil-workers in a disaster is beyond repugnant.

As to blaming it on Christians, that is just stupid. Is it only Christians that use products derived from oil in their cars, boats; homes; factories; trucks; trains; power-stations?

Is it only Christians that invest in oil companies and all those other production plants that produce the products you and millions of other Americans buy?

Is it only Christians that are employed in all those factories and farms across the US?

Is it only Christian pension funds and union membership fees that are invested in all these companies that depend on oil?

Or did you just wake up this morning and thought you would like to have a bigoted rant and Christians were the first group that came to mind?

Did you think that .357 Magnum you own was produced in a factory that didn't use oil?

The Tower of Babel was a moral on hubris, perhaps you should go and read the Biblical story again, before sitting there, like Nero, blaming the Christians.

If any of you Americans learn of any emergency fund for those that have lost their loved ones in this disaster, perhaps you would be so kind as to inform us on this side of the Pond. I am sure there are others apart from myself that would like to contribute to those families in their hour of grief.

[Delilah]

That oil rig has a history of mishaps and yet BP never had any emergency plans!

[rdy2go]

This will sound fucked up to a lot of you, but it is my demented way of making my point concerning the situation in the Gulf of Mexico. As we all know this event is just one more in a long list of man made disasters world wide. As serious as it is, there have been and will be others with varying degrees of damage done to the planet. Here is Rdy's twisted soulution: We might as well pull all the stops on nuclear weapons and let them have at it in a full on nuke 'em up fest. Because the way I see it to do that will get it over with quickly, letting oil co's and other big business destroy the planet little by little is just taking to long. Of course I am only joking about the nuclear war thing, but most of you will understand what I'm getting at.

[12voltman59]

As much as that BP might to blame for this--just like Massey Energy with the disaster at the Upper Branch coal mine in West Virginia---both disasters can be traced to the same source---our government's failure to make the respective companies live up to the laws we already have on the books regarding mine safety and proper techniques for operating an oil rig.

We have had as recent government policy--a hands off, look the other way, "we won't regulate you anymore" philosophy in government that allows these companies to basically get away with not having to follow most of the rules so they can make as much money as possible.

So----as much as blame resting anyplace---it is really more the government's fault---business is going to be business----its going to try to get away with as much as it can, not following reasonable rules so they can "maximize profit."

It is the role of government to act in the best interests of all the people.

This is what you get when you let business to do what business will.

As far as I am concerned---that needs to stop--in all the areas that this is being allowed.

I really do hope that this oil leak winds up not being bad at all--once again-its one of those things that "only time will tell." I would love to be a nervous nellly and over reacting when it comes to this situation--and I sure hope that it is not worse than what I can so far imagine.

[rdy2go]

As much as that BP might to blame for this--just like Massey Energy with the disaster at the Upper Branch coal mine in West Virginia---both disasters can be traced to the same source---our government's failure to make the respective companies live up to the laws we already have on the books regarding mine safety and proper techniques for operating an oil rig.

We have had as recent government policy--a hands off, look the other way, "we won't regulate you anymore" philosophy in government that allows these companies to basically get away with not having to follow most of the rules so they can make as much money as possible.

So----as much as blame resting anyplace---it is really more the government's fault---business is going to be business----its going to try to get away with as much as it can, not following reasonable rules so they can "maximize profit."

It is the role of government to act in the best interests of all the people.

This is what you get when you let business to do what business will.

As far as I am concerned---that needs to stop--in all the areas that this is being allowed.

I really do hope that this oil leak winds up not being bad at all--once again-its one of those things that "only time will tell." I would love to be a nervous nellly and over reacting when it comes to this situation--and I sure hope that it is not worse than what I can so far imagine.

Good points volty, but have you ever noticed that when and if a disaster happens in a country that may not be on the "A" list in the industrialized world, the G-8 gov'ts are quick to condemn those countries, but when it happens in Canada, USA or one of the others in the ever exclusive "A" listers nobody is allowed to say a damn thing about it! If a spill of this magnitiude happens in Venezula (sp). Harper, Obama and the rest would go nuts, and never end the condemnation. Then we would do the right thing and send help, but only so our leaders could pat themslves on the back and say "Lookit us we are helping!" Last year one of the companies operating in the Tar Sands project in Alberta screwed up and the warning devices to keep water fowl from a tailings pond got turned off. Hundreds of birds died. Yes the Company is being held to account, and there will be fines, but not nearly enough to justify the damage, and no Oil Company executive has to take responsibility, so really the criminal case there is a facade to shut the greenpeacers up. The good part is, ya can't shut greenpeace or the seira club up. But still, their protests won't effect any real change, there is to much money involved.

[Lady_Passion]

^
^

Anyone left who doesn't believe we're governed according to the best interests of corporate welfare?

[Darkside2009]

^
^

Anyone left who doesn't believe we're governed according to the best interests of corporate welfare?

To an extent that is true, but I think with all governments it is a juggling act. Western countries economies depend on oil to run our industries, heat and light our homes, run our cars etc.

Fewer industries mean fewer in employment, less generated in direct income tax, a higher Social security bill, less income for the Government to spend.

So the trend is to introduce taxes on spending rather than taxes on income. In the UK, petrol costs around the equivalent of $7 per gallon, most of that will be Government taxes.

If petrol prices are capped then the oil companies are forced to reduce their costs where they can. Often to the detriment of safety to people and to the environment.

Companies look to their profit and losses. If implementing safety strategies eat in to those profits too much, they take those industries abroad, to places like China were the same restrictions don't apply.

That means huge swathes of unemployment in your country, as in mine. Large numbers of unemployed create pressures on Government, so Government is under increased pressure to offer incentives to attract business.

That can mean turning a blind eye to safety violations in the race for profits, with the resultant tragic loss of life of the workers and the potential environmental catastrophy to the fishing industry and wildlife.

There is no single solution to these problems, finding and implementing greener fuels will help as will our purchasing habits.

[12voltman59]

From some people who know what it is to have a crude oil spoil do to their waterways:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100503/ap_on_bi_ge/us_gulf_oil_spill_alaska

[void()]

I'm going to reply to this point to point.

"I find this post of yours utterly bizarre, Void. How you can find humour in the deaths of oil-workers in a disaster is beyond repugnant.

I find humor in it because there is little to nothing I can do for those who have met their peril, or will. I find humor because in over 3,000 years mankind's nature has not advanced any further than the tower of Babylon. A reasonably intelligent person could think people would learn from history.


As to blaming it on Christians, that is just stupid. Is it only Christians that use products derived from oil in their cars, boats; homes; factories; trucks; trains; power-stations?


(Sigh) I was not blaming Christians. I merely pointed out that many employed in the field of Big Oil are more than likely Christians. It is in the Christian dogma as history, as you point out, the folly of mankind's arrogance. It is me commenting in general that it is quite ironic no one, Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindu, Satanists ... no one, not even the guy on Mars seems to learn from history. And yes, it truly is ironic if you but think about it. I further never said I did not partake of the products given by oil. It doesn't matter to me if they were all Plebian gorfs from Zeno in the Q'aurn galaxy, mate, they still learned jack all it seems.

Or did you just wake up this morning and thought you would like to have a bigoted rant and Christians were the first group that came to mind?

Please, do us all a favor and do not attempt to read into my writing, or if that is to troublesome ... don't read my posts. You assume far too much knowledge of me, that you possibly will never have. I am no bigot by any standard. Sorry, I loathe stupidity, so yes I'm a bigot of that.


The Tower of Babel was a moral on hubris, perhaps you should go and read the Biblical story again, before sitting there, like Nero, blaming the Christians.

And perhaps you ought to consider therapy, it's done wonders for me. That's why I can see the humor in the tragedy. Look, it'll keep happening until all of us learn to learn from our past errors. Will we? So far it doesn't look like we are. That to me is funny. I'm not laughing at the deaths but laughing at the situation life has shown. If you can't grasp that, therapy may help.

"

[Darkside2009]

So, yeah I find it hilarious any more. You know what, you daft religious freaks go on and kill one another off, let us non-religious folks be. We'll try to do make do with what ya'll leave in the wake.

No Void, the above is not bigotry at all, it's total moonshine.

And I don't suppose there could have been any agnostics or aetheists on that rig, or people with other religious convictions. They all had to be Christians deserving of their fate because they didn't learn from history?

It couldn't be the case that they were just ordinary workers trying to put food on the table and keep a roof over their families heads?

You are right, I don't know you. I just base my assessment on what you choose to put up on the screen. A man who can make the remarks you have about the tragic loss of life involved in this. Who can show such little respect for the grief of widows, orphans and the deceased's family and friends, is in my estimation, a man not worth knowing.

If it had been one of your family that died, would you still have found it funny?

[Pasadenacpl2]

Three weeks and essentially no response from our federal government.

I seem to recall that after two days Bush hated black people and we were calling for the head of the head of FEMA. So, does Obama hate black people? Or southern people? Or just people in general? Does he hate sea birds?

I love how even handed our media is.

Pasa

[TaylorMade]

This is something which really is funny in a certain light. Let me elucidate my point of view before misunderstanding it.

There are lots and lots of God fearing Christians in Texas and around the coasts. And we as a race have this nice way to record mistakes, called history. So, I find it funny that Christians will not learn from past mistakes, even from their own dogma. Recall the tower of Babylon? But heck no, we'll just keep running those oil and gas guzzling pieces of crap. We'll have holy wars in the name of attaining oil, destroy our planet to get it, too.

When Desert Storm happened folks wondered about Hussein's choice of lighting up the oil fields. It's common Roman strategy called poisoning the well, it was also sheer military genius on his part. The U.S. wanted the oil, screw it, let it burn before they get it. And as a side effect we got boys coming home so messed up they can't see straight. But no one ever learns from history, or past mistakes.

So, yeah I find it hilarious any more. You know what, you daft religious freaks go on and kill one another off, let us non-religious folks be. We'll try to do make do with what ya'll leave in the wake.

Jesus. . . it's about oil, and somehow you just GOTTA get a smack in on the Christians. Oil - - and somehow, it's all the Christians fault. So my music pastor must be a closet pagan b/c he recycles like crazy, has a scooter instead of a car, went vegan, and wants the church to get a hybrid.

FGSFDS.

Come ON!

*Taylor*

[Alaskan Couple]

Three weeks and essentially no response from our federal government.

I seem to recall that after two days Bush hated black people and we were calling for the head of the head of FEMA. So, does Obama hate black people? Or southern people? Or just people in general? Does he hate sea birds?

I love how even handed our media is.

Pasa

This is the problem when a person becomes so indoctrinated into a political party. To try and make a comparison between these two events simply so you can point a critical finger at Obama or the "liberal media" reveals a malice and a party loyalty that has essentially closed your mind to any open rational conclusion outside of the "Party Mantra"......it's Obama's fault....it's Obama's fault...Obama is the Evil One....the Liberals control the Media...all Media (except FOX) is of the Evil One...

First, FEMA is set up to deal primarily with natural disasters - Katrina was not only a natural disaster, but one that didn't take anyone by surprise. So yes, FEMA under the last administration dropped the ball on that one. (And the media pointed it out. Perhaps some radicals let their own political bias blind them and they too made some stupid remarks against former Pres. Bush.)

Secondly, the current disaster in the Gulf is a man-made one - and a unique situation of scope, magnitude and complexity which has never been faced before. And as has been mentioned previously in this thread the multi-national corporation in charge of the operation who should have had layered contingency plans in place did not. So FEMA is now trying to deal with a totally new type of disaster. (A side note; BP (the party at fault) has a less than stellar record for safety and corporate good citizenship. I don't think it was mentioned yet, but BP was also recently fined by the Alaskan DER for negligence on the Trans-Alaskan Pipeline after neglected maintenance led to an oil spill in the Arctic - oops, they said they were sorry - haha!)

Your criticism reveals your bias. Perhaps the reason the "media" has not taken a stand more to your liking is because they recognize the difference between the two situations.

But aside from political swipes, I would hope that this "wake-up call" will indeed awaken all of the world to the dangers associated with offshore oil exploration (and transport). The people and nations of the world should hold these corporate barons to task and force them to develop the safeguards before they begin to punch holes in the ocean floors. Much of Alaska's shoreline is ruined for the foreseeable future - now I believe much of the Gulfs shoreline will be as well. The real question is; will the governments of the nations have the leadership to resist the corporate bribe and say enough is enough.

[Pasadenacpl2]

Actually, there is very little difference. FEMA is indeed the proper agency. This particular issue has had an S.O.P. in place since 1994. The S.O.P. is to begin burning within 24 hours to contain the situation. This has not been followed.

I am not complaining that the media isn't hanging Obama out to dry over it. THIS is the rational response to this situation. To be calm, and to deal with it as well as we can with what we have. My only point is that it should have been the same response with Katrina. But, instead, it was a finger pointing game from day 1. Interestingly, most people forget that the governor of Louisiana blocked the federal government from assisting for nearly a week. Because there are state's rights, states must invite FEMA in to help them. There is no such restriction when dealing with our coastal waters.

As for the 'wake up call' I don't think it will. There are more than 30,000 rigs in the gulf of Mexico alone. This is the first major issue since the 70s. Is the situation bad? For certain, it is. BP as well as the fed need to be cleaning that up, and doing it now. Is it a reason to abandon offshore drilling? No. That would be a kneejerk reaction.

As for the personal observations, don't try to pigeon hole me. You don't know me, so don't make assumptions about me that you have no knowledge of. Debate the issue, not the person. If you knew anything about me, you'd know that I will take presidents to task no matter what their affiliation. Same with the medias treatment of same.

Pasa

[void()]

"If it had been one of your family that died, would you still have found it funny?"

I think I possibly would, yes. Because like I said it wasn't about any one group in particular. Sorry you can't see irony of the human condition. I'm sure I would also grieve, but yes I think I would still the funniness of it as well. And that too is part of being human.

[12voltman59]

Now this REALLY SUCKS----they are now saying the oil in the Gulf is bound to wind up in the Gulf of Mexico "loop current" which is part of the Gulfstream--and if that happens---or when it happens-- the current flows so fast that within one week of that time--the oil will be off the coast of North Carolina going northbound--and from there--- along the eastern US seaboard all the way up past Nova Scotia and up to the coastlines of the southern Brithish Isles within a few weeks!!!!!

So----the Bahamas---at least the western Bahamian islands, all along most of the US Atlantic coast, Bermuda and points all over the place COULD conceivably see oil from this thing!!

It COULD possiblly become one of the largest environmental disasters in history!

I was listening to a call in/talk show on NPR that was on last night----as one caller to the show said---it is only a matter of time before we have a nuclear powerplant do a total and complete meltdown---and even though that is one of those "scary things" we don't much want to think about----that person was probably right--eventually---go long enough and the rules of probablity of something major going wrong with something will take place---and its obvious--in spite of the claims to the contrary of those who own and operate things lilke coal mines, oil rigs and refineries, and nuclear power stations when they say: "We have so perfected the technology, we can handle any contingency that might occur--but it won't of course!" But when something does happen---they don't have a clue of what to do it seems.

Hell---we have had so many "disasters" of this sort already this year--why not go for a big Trifecta and let 2010 not only be the year of a number of bad coal mine disasters, possibly the worst oil spill in history and on top of that have a nuke plant in a major metropolitan area of the world go red hot killing a major city and surroundings!!!! It will make 2010 be one hellluva year!!!!!:eek::eek: (or more aptly---they year from hell!! I acutally don't want something like that to happen of course---but it does seem the laws of probablilty are catching up with us so far this year on so many things)

One thing is for damn sure--"CHEAP ENERGY" is not so bloody cheap! (and I do mean blood--since in the cases of the recent disasters of this sort--it has cost the shedding of human blood--and now--with this disaster--the blood of untold numbers of creation's creatures--some kind of great stewards of the Earth, we humans are!!!!!!)

[MarieDelta]

http://images.fanpop.com/images/image_uploads/Pearls-Before-Swine-pearls-before-swine-556757_800_600.gif

.....

is it 2012 already?

[Tulips4you]

WE do this to ourselves. we are careless of our environment and suffer with our consequences of sitting on our hands instead of calling out for help not just with the BP situation BUT with our inability to be responsible for our actions. shame on us.

[FalconAngel]

And it keeps getting dumber, too..........

http://www.care2.com/causes/politics/blog/rush-limbaugh-hints-oil-spill/

Rush Limbaugh Wonders if Environmentalists Blew Up Louisiana Oil Rig

On his radio show, Rush Limbaugh hinted that environmentalists, with the help of the Obama Administration, blew up the oil rig in Louisiana to cause what will be this country's worst oil spill in order to improved the chances of passing carbon cap and trade legislation.



From the transcript:

"I want to get back to the timing of the blowing up, the explosion out there in the Gulf of Mexico of this oil rig....Now, lest we forget, ladies and gentlemen, the carbon tax bill, cap and trade that was scheduled to be announced on Earth Day. I remember that. And then it was postponed for a couple of days later after Earth Day, and then of course immigration has now moved in front of it. But this bill, the cap-and-trade bill, was strongly criticized by hardcore environmentalist wackos because it supposedly allowed more offshore drilling and nuclear plants, nuclear plant investment. So, since they're sending SWAT teams down there, folks, since they're sending SWAT teams to inspect the other rigs, what better way to head off more oil drilling, nuclear plants, than by blowing up a rig? I'm just noting the timing here."

Ezra Klein asks if Limbaugh is an oil-spill truther but more importantly asks if there's anything Limbaugh won't say? To suppose that the U.S. government would risk destroying hundreds of miles of ocean, lush coastline and the economic stability of Louisiana, Florida, Mississippi, Alabama, and Texas, as well as those of eastern Mexico and possibly other countries, all to make it easier to pass reasonable environmental regulation is beyond absurd. It's the ranting of a delusional man, but a man who is a leading pundit for this country's conservatives.

Read more: oil, mexico, conspiracy, politics, rush, gulf, limbaugh, spill, louisiana, leak, rush-limbaugh
quick poll
vote now! thanks for voting!

[12voltman59]

Does anything that Rush says really surprise anyone??

The man's stock in trade is to come up with totally assine bullshit like he spews---what is sad--is that he has such a following of people who hang on to his every word as if it were gospel coming down from Moses on Mt Sinai or something of that sort.

Everyone is so scared of Rush---that no one really dares call him on the outrageous shit he says--well--at least a few do---but they are only a handful of people and they really don't have much of a following--at least equal to that of people like Rush.

To me--that is almost a sadder situation than what this oil leak and its spreading might turn out to be.

[TaylorMade]

And it keeps getting dumber, too..........

http://www.care2.com/causes/politics/blog/rush-limbaugh-hints-oil-spill/

Rush Limbaugh Wonders if Environmentalists Blew Up Louisiana Oil Rig

On his radio show, Rush Limbaugh hinted that environmentalists, with the help of the Obama Administration, blew up the oil rig in Louisiana to cause what will be this country's worst oil spill in order to improved the chances of passing carbon cap and trade legislation.



From the transcript:

"I want to get back to the timing of the blowing up, the explosion out there in the Gulf of Mexico of this oil rig....Now, lest we forget, ladies and gentlemen, the carbon tax bill, cap and trade that was scheduled to be announced on Earth Day. I remember that. And then it was postponed for a couple of days later after Earth Day, and then of course immigration has now moved in front of it. But this bill, the cap-and-trade bill, was strongly criticized by hardcore environmentalist wackos because it supposedly allowed more offshore drilling and nuclear plants, nuclear plant investment. So, since they're sending SWAT teams down there, folks, since they're sending SWAT teams to inspect the other rigs, what better way to head off more oil drilling, nuclear plants, than by blowing up a rig? I'm just noting the timing here."

Ezra Klein asks if Limbaugh is an oil-spill truther but more importantly asks if there's anything Limbaugh won't say? To suppose that the U.S. government would risk destroying hundreds of miles of ocean, lush coastline and the economic stability of Louisiana, Florida, Mississippi, Alabama, and Texas, as well as those of eastern Mexico and possibly other countries, all to make it easier to pass reasonable environmental regulation is beyond absurd. It's the ranting of a delusional man, but a man who is a leading pundit for this country's conservatives.

Read more: oil, mexico, conspiracy, politics, rush, gulf, limbaugh, spill, louisiana, leak, rush-limbaugh
quick poll
vote now! thanks for voting!

Well, with groups like ALF and ELF out there. . . it's not as far out as you think. Many of these groups attempt to spike trees to hurt loggers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tree_spiking), it's established many uber-environmentalists don't CARE about the loss of human life, and are penny wise and pound foolish in their actions...They burn down hummer dealerships (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/09/19/national/main574260.shtml) - -releasing the chemicals from the car into the air.

Knowing this. . .is it worth ridicule simply because ... oh, God Forbid, RUSH said it? That's not to say I believe him. I'm just saying he ain't as "Dumb" as you want to paint him. . . The ALF-er/ELF-er style environmentalists have the mentality and the motive. . .they probably don't have the means (that we know of). As to the administration being involved? That's lame.

See how easy that was?

You call yourself PC and open minded... It seems the doors only swing one way.

*Taylor*

[12voltman59]

Taylor--Rush LImbaugh is a public figure---one who makes a very good living by spouting all sorts of very nasty and vile things----with most of those the things he says---the man gets a pass from critical comment by most of the rest of the meida and other public figures.

I don't give an quarter to that man and I reject the bile he spews from the orifice on his face that is called a mouth, but one to me is dirtier and more foul than the other hole a few feet south of his mouth.

My being critical of Rush Limbaugh on this venue is not even a gnat bothering an elephant--but I am critical of him here and critical of him whenever and wherever I can.

To me---Rush is so vile because talking heads such as his personage----have helped to coarsen and poison the well of public disccourse which is one of the worst things about him--plus---the man just continues to say so many things that leave me wondering if he has one ounce of human empathy and compassion---with him-whether out of true conviction--or because as a lady that I once knew had grown up with him would say "oh, Rush--he just says that stuff because he finally found a way to do two things he vowed to do as a kid--be on the radio and make lots of money." If that is true---then he is an even more a vile and despicable soul, doing what he does simply for money. I would rather believe he says and does what he does out of true conviction---at least that has some degree of integrity.

Diss Rush Lmibaugh--damn right Taylor--I am going to diss Rush Limbaugh till the day I hope he no longer has a market for his nasty hate filled speech, he retires or he passes from this Earth.

I do have good news to report on the attempt to stem the flow of oil from the blown out well---the have been able to cap one of the three leak sources:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/05/05/AR2010050501587.html?wpisrc=nl_natlalert

Maybe they can get this thing done fairly quickly and that will limit the damage done and the continuing threat the oil leaks pose.

Then the people who did get hit will not be so badly hurt and the recovery process can begin and all the worst concerns about this situation were for naught!

[MarieDelta]

Now now Voltie, Rush is just angry cause he cant get his OxyContin fix...

[TaylorMade]

Now now Voltie, Rush is just angry cause he cant get his OxyContin fix...

Wow. Just. Wow.

*Taylor*

[TaylorMade]

Taylor--Rush LImbaugh is a public figure---one who makes a very good living by spouting all sorts of very nasty and vile things----with most of those the things he says---the man gets a pass from critical comment by most of the rest of the meida and other public figures.

I don't give an quarter to that man and I reject the bile he spews from the orifice on his face that is called a mouth, but one to me is dirtier and more foul than the other hole a few feet south of his mouth.

My being critical of Rush Limbaugh on this venue is not even a gnat bothering an elephant--but I am critical of him here and critical of him whenever and wherever I can.

To me---Rush is so vile because talking heads such as his personage----have helped to coarsen and poison the well of public disccourse which is one of the worst things about him--plus---the man just continues to say so many things that leave me wondering if he has one ounce of human empathy and compassion---with him-whether out of true conviction--or because as a lady that I once knew had grown up with him would say "oh, Rush--he just says that stuff because he finally found a way to do two things he vowed to do as a kid--be on the radio and make lots of money." If that is true---then he is an even more a vile and despicable soul, doing what he does simply for money. I would rather believe he says and does what he does out of true conviction---at least that has some degree of integrity.

Diss Rush Lmibaugh--damn right Taylor--I am going to diss Rush Limbaugh till the day I hope he no longer has a market for his nasty hate filled speech, he retires or he passes from this Earth.

I do have good news to report on the attempt to stem the flow of oil from the blown out well---the have been able to cap one of the three leak sources:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/05/05/AR2010050501587.html?wpisrc=nl_natlalert

Maybe they can get this thing done fairly quickly and that will limit the damage done and the continuing threat the oil leaks pose.

Then the people who did get hit will not be so badly hurt and the recovery process can begin and all the worst concerns about this situation were for naught!

Please don't lecture me. I know who he is, and what he does.

But, this is what I see YOU doing - -I hate him , therefore it's okay to talk shit about him.

Fuck that shit.

That's all you're saying. That makes you no better than your painting of him.

I gave you reasons why Rush may have a partial point. I pointed out that ALF and ELF DO have a history of doing dumbshit in the name of the environment. He went too far in blaming the administration, and I said as much.

You reacted by attacking him as a person. How does that get any point across besides hate?

That's all I'm seeing here.You didn't deny that ALF and ELF DO have a history of doing dumbshit in the name of the environment. (Because that's how an argument works in the rational world, you know?)



*Taylor*

[MarieDelta]

Wow. Just. Wow.

*Taylor*

That was nothing like the invective he pours out on a daily basis.


Nothing against transgenders, nothing against transsexuals, but that doesn't apply because they weren't polled. Only women were polled in this. So if you had an addadictomy, you can't call here and say you used to be a woman. It ain't gonna work. And if you had a chopadickoffamy and you used to be a guy, you cannot call here and say you're now a woman. You can try it, but it isn't gonna work. Now, we ask that all of you be honest. We ask that all of you be sincere in our effort here to close the El Rushbo gender gap based on the polling from Public Policy Polling. I just got a note: "Can employees participate in the All Female Summit?" Can employees participate? Well, I assume so, but the employees must go through the regular channels. There will be no preferential treatment shown to callers.

Dont respect me, and I dont have to respect you.

Rush Limbaugh is a drug addict. That is a fact. He'd do just about anything for some of that again.

Not only that, he is a hypocritical jerk. I'm only surprised he didnt call us "she-males."

[TaylorMade]

That was nothing like the invective he pours out on a daily basis.

Dont respect me, and I dont have to respect you.

Rush Limbaugh is a drug addict. That is a fact. He'd do just about anything for some of that again.

Not only that, he is a hypocritical jerk. I'm only surprised he didnt call us "she-males."

What does that have to do with what he said about the oil spill? Because he pours out invective against your group, every single thing he says is wrong?

Even a broken clock is right twice a day.

Hypocrite in what sense? Because earlier he condemned drug use and found out to be a user, which he apologized for? We've forgiven our public figures of worse.

Then again, those are the public figures that we LIKE. But if it's someone we don't like... they could find the cure for aids and we'd bitch they didn't cure cancer.

*Taylor*

[Pasadenacpl2]

Rush Limbaugh is a drug addict. That is a fact.

Agreed. That is a fact. Though, the term 'drug addict carries connotations of backrooms, lighting up, medical rubber bands around the arms and needles in the veins. Being addicted to pain killers is different by orders of magnitude.


He'd do just about anything for some of that again.

This, however, is not a fact. It's conjecture with nothing to support it.



Not only that, he is a hypocritical jerk. I'm only surprised he didnt call us "she-males."

What if he did? No offense hun, but that's how it's marketed. I seem to recall a ton of DVDs on the shelf of "Shemales #3 *wildest EVER*" and so on and so forth. Of the very many intelligent reasons you might have to dislike Rush (I don't blame anyone who doesn't like him), this is not one of them. It's as stupid as blacks who changed what was PC to call them after the civil rights movement. I've been around a bit, so i remember it going from colored, to black, to African American, to Afro American, and back to black. I remember that it was used as a 'gotcha' on an all too frequent basis by blacks who had an ax to grind (or is that African American?).

I usually love your arguments because they are well thought out. Even when I disagree, I like reading your stuff. Here, however, your argument here is pure emotion.

Rush had a point. That people don't like Rush should be meaningless. Take away Rush from the equation. Is it possible that an evironmentalist organization would do something like this with the goal of getting off shore drilling to be stopped? Is it possible? Yes. Is it what happened? I don't know. But, it is well within the realm of possibility, and it is not insane to contemplate.

Pasa

[12voltman59]

I had not heard this--but apparently Glenn Beck has been dissing Teddy Roosevelt for being some wild eyed "progressive."

Well I am on the mailing list for NewsMax--which is a conservative news source that I like since they present facts and not just spin like that one big particular so called conservatively slanted news organization out there----it rhymes with cocks, more or less, with its name starting with an "F"

Here is a copy of that email:

Glenn Beck Should Revere Teddy Roosevelt
By Christopher Ruddy

It is remarkable that Theodore Roosevelt (TR to his friends), who has been beloved as an iconic patriot and president, would become a controversial figure today.

This unusual development is largely due to the rise of Glenn Beck.

Glenn is wrong on one big issue: Theodore Roosevelt is not, as he claims, the root cause of President Obama’s intrusive, “big government” policies.

It is no accident that TR’s face is chiseled into Mount Rushmore along with those of George Washington, Thomas Jefferson and Abraham Lincoln, as he is rightly regarded by historians as one of the greatest presidents in American history.

He was raised to that height in the national consciousness by the weight of important achievements that significantly advanced the interests of the United States.

Strong in this belief, I have found Glenn Beck’s criticism of TR surprising.

At his CPAC speech this past February, Glenn said that TR was largely responsible for the “progressive” encroachments we are seeing today. Elsewhere, he has described TR as a “weird progressive,” and said that TR started the idea that the United States should not be a sovereign nation.

A few words of disclosure here: I am an ardent Theodore Roosevelt devotee and have been a longtime member of the Theodore Roosevelt Association.

And my brother, Daniel Ruddy, a historian, is the author of a new book called “Theodore Roosevelt’s History of the United States” (published by Harper Collins). It draws upon TR’s own words to construct a unique history of the United States based on Roosevelt’s colorful insights and provocative views.

Editor's Note: You can get Daniel Ruddy's new book from Amazon at a great price — Go Here Now

After reading it, I was awed. I was glad to see my high opinion of the book confirmed by the high praise my brother has already received from historians, including Pulitzer Prize-winning author Edmund Morris (who has studied TR’s life for 30 years and penned the book’s Foreword), as well as Douglas Brinkley and Thomas Fleming.

Dan’s book should put to rest the idea that TR was “weird” or had any extra-constitutional agenda.

Glenn Beck is correct in stating that Roosevelt was among America’s first progressives. To accurately portray TR today, we must widen our perspective and see him in the full context of his life and times.

Roosevelt embraced a progressive agenda, one that called for establishing a “progressive” income tax, giving women the right to vote, creating laws banning child labor, instituting anti-monopoly regulations, and other programs. Many of his positions are accepted by most reasonable Americans today.

Remember that TR’s generation was dominated by ruthless “robber barons” who did not hesitate to use devious means to eliminate competition.

Like all great statesmen in the history of our republic, TR listened to the American people.

His hero was the Great Emancipator, Abraham Lincoln. Roosevelt was deeply impressed with Lincoln’s political sagacity, noting that, “Lincoln stood with the radicals to abolish slavery and with the conservatives to save the Union, and he was right in both cases.”

And that is what Theodore Roosevelt always tried to do, to act according to the practical needs of the occasion, to make America strong and No. 1 on the world stage.



I am glad to see a true conservative organization call out a "faux conservative" on something!!

[12voltman59]

Taylor--I am attacking Rush Limbaugh for his public persona and the negativity that he brings to the world----all the man does is bitch, piss and moan about things--but he NEVER---really ever offers any sort of positive contributions on how to "make things right or better" other than to say that "you have to get rid of all those liberal types and their policies, then everything will be just fine with the world!"

I have heard from people who say that in person--Rush is a nice guy, is personable and all ---but like I said----the face he presents to the public--in my view----is nothing but negative. He has no qualms about saying all kinds of nasty, nasty things about any person, group, organization or whatever that he does not agree with and for him---in his public persona--there can be no quarter given to those who don't agree with the almighty and all knowing "El Rushbo" or whatever he calls himself.

On most of our money there are stamped these words---"E Pluribus Unum"--"From The Many--ONE!!"

I might be idealistic---but I do believe in that motto as a guiding way to do things--in this country----we are supposed to be about coming together--in spite of our differences to work together for the common good----but thanks to people like Rush Limbaugh---a hard enough ideal to work to attain under less polarized conditions becomes all the much harder if not downright impossible thakns to the fact that he encourages so many people to not be reasonable, to not listen to "liberals/progressives" dissmissing anything and anyone who comes from that side of things out of hand--and in a turn around--with all the nasty things he says about "liberals/progressives" being so evil, bad and all---it makes them less willing to work with and find some common ground with those who are followers of people like Rush and the rest of his type.

They have as I keep saying--"helped to POISON THE WELL!!"'

This is my problem with Senor Limbaugh!!

If he were just another rich, fat, old white man pissed off about whatever shit it is that pisses him off, spouting about that stuff with family and friends---I would not give a second though to him---but that he is on the air---day after day----spouting his poison, with millions of listeners and fans who he encourages them to act in the same way --that is why he fires me up so!!!!

I don't apologize at all for not giving that man any slack--he doesn't deserve any in my view since he obviously has no intention of ever chaging his modus operandi!!!!

I can tell ya--I have lost "friendships" with people who were such big Rush fans--THEY could never give it a rest and not at least let us come to the point that "we can agree to disagree on most things and I can accept that you have your views and I hope that you respect mine"--but no----those Rush Limbaugh "Dittoheads" could not let it go that I am of "the liberal persuasion"---so our "friendships" such as they were--had to come to an end!!" I wonder how many father and sons, or brothers or sisters don't talk to each other, or at least have a distance from one another thanks to Rush?? Even if it is just a relative handful--that is way too many people in that situation!! All because of someone like Rush!

I know that I am not the only person to have experienced this--and it goes both ways with some liberal people I have known cutting off the conservatives they know from their lives because someone they knew was such a "dittohead!"

[MarieDelta]

Agreed. That is a fact. Though, the term 'drug addict carries connotations of backrooms, lighting up, medical rubber bands around the arms and needles in the veins. Being addicted to pain killers is different by orders of magnitude.



This, however, is not a fact. It's conjecture with nothing to support it.




What if he did? No offense hun, but that's how it's marketed. I seem to recall a ton of DVDs on the shelf of "Shemales #3 *wildest EVER*" and so on and so forth. Of the very many intelligent reasons you might have to dislike Rush (I don't blame anyone who doesn't like him), this is not one of them. It's as stupid as blacks who changed what was PC to call them after the civil rights movement. I've been around a bit, so i remember it going from colored, to black, to African American, to Afro American, and back to black. I remember that it was used as a 'gotcha' on an all too frequent basis by blacks who had an ax to grind (or is that African American?).

I usually love your arguments because they are well thought out. Even when I disagree, I like reading your stuff. Here, however, your argument here is pure emotion.

Rush had a point. That people don't like Rush should be meaningless. Take away Rush from the equation. Is it possible that an evironmentalist organization would do something like this with the goal of getting off shore drilling to be stopped? Is it possible? Yes. Is it what happened? I don't know. But, it is well within the realm of possibility, and it is not insane to contemplate.

Pasa

Yeah? It is a bit emotional. I do get a bit tired of the rhetoric from him and other radio talk show hosts(not just on the right wing, btw.) I am allowed to be human.

As far as how it's marketed big deal. She-male is derogatory. Period.If you see a film out there that says "N*****'s screwing B!tches" does that make it alright to use that kind of language?

Yeah I know, "But, I have friends who call themselves that..." I have male / female friends who call themselves assholes / whores, can I call you that, too?

Once again, be polite to me , and I will return the favor. Respect earns you respect.



An addiction to painkillers is an addiction to painkillers. They dont call it "hillbilly heroin" (http://www.opiates.com/media/heroin-belleville.html) for nothing, you know? As far as him wanting more - that is what being an addict is all about.


As far as him having a point? Its a half truth and we all know it. And a half truth is still a lie.

[csrakate]

Though, the term 'drug addict carries connotations of backrooms, lighting up, medical rubber bands around the arms and needles in the veins. Being addicted to pain killers is different by orders of magnitude.

Not to derail the subject matter...just a point of clarification...an addict is an addict. People in recovery make no distinction between back alley druggies and upper class prescription addicts....the illness is the same and it crosses over boundaries. Doesn't matter how you classify it, the addict will do anything to get their drug of choice and it will kill them just the same. So no...it doesn't make him any better than the average addict on the street.

[MarieDelta]

What does that have to do with what he said about the oil spill? Because he pours out invective against your group, every single thing he says is wrong?

Even a broken clock is right twice a day.

Hypocrite in what sense? Because earlier he condemned drug use and found out to be a user, which he apologized for? We've forgiven our public figures of worse.

Then again, those are the public figures that we LIKE. But if it's someone we don't like... they could find the cure for aids and we'd bitch they didn't cure cancer.

*Taylor*

A broken clock may be right 2x a day, but I dont use it to check the time.

He was condeming drug use while he was using drugs, that does make him a hypocrit, yes.

Like I said respect earns you respect.

http://www.liberty-news.com/cartoons/RushLimbaughWasHigh.gif

[Jason0012]

This is something which really is funny in a certain light. Let me elucidate my point of view before misunderstanding it.

There are lots and lots of God fearing Christians in Texas and around the coasts. And we as a race have this nice way to record mistakes, called history. So, I find it funny that Christians will not learn from past mistakes, even from their own dogma. Recall the tower of Babylon? But heck no, we'll just keep running those oil and gas guzzling pieces of crap. We'll have holy wars in the name of attaining oil, destroy our planet to get it, too.

When Desert Storm happened folks wondered about Hussein's choice of lighting up the oil fields. It's common Roman strategy called poisoning the well, it was also sheer military genius on his part. The U.S. wanted the oil, screw it, let it burn before they get it. And as a side effect we got boys coming home so messed up they can't see straight. But no one ever learns from history, or past mistakes.

So, yeah I find it hilarious any more. You know what, you daft religious freaks go on and kill one another off, let us non-religious folks be. We'll try to do make do with what ya'll leave in the wake.

What I find really humorous is that since oil seems so dangerous to the enviornment, now we are plotting to build more nuclear plants ! Gee wizz, nothing ever goes wrong with them.:rotate: We don't want to face an enviornmental dissaster that will take decades to clean up so we choose a technology that produces toxic byproducts that must be successfully contained for 50000 years? And we are choosing this because we cant contain oil safely? Some days I think humanity must deserve extinction!

[gen11]

I'm at Ground Zero for this one -- almost. At my doorstep are the whitest beaches in the world, the Emerald Coast of Panhandle Florida, from Pensacola eastward. The entire economy of the panhandle depends on two sources: the military and tourism. If our beaches get ruined, tourism will drop to virtually nothing and the effect will be like an ultra-slow motion carpet bombing over the course of about three years.

If the slick goes much south, it could get caught by the Gulf Loop Current, which runs north from the Yucatan Channel to just off the foot of Louisiana, does a U-turn to flow south-southeast to the Keys, and joins the Gulf Stream. Should the slick get caught in the Loop, it will contaminate the only living coral reef in North America, south of the Keys; that reef is the breeding ground for countless species of marine life from the bottom of the marine food chain to the top. The reef is so fragile that a single 25-lb anchor dropped and dragged does significant damage.

As for suing BP: BP isn't a person. It doesn't have feelings. It is a financial entity, a megalith corporation. It has deprived, and will deprive, Gulf Coast fishermen of their livelihoods. It became an appropriate target for damages suits the moment damages began to occur. I have no axe to grind against BP. It is in business to explore for oil, produce it, refine it, and sell its products to me. I have faith that BP took all known prudent precautions in every aspect of their operation. Accidents happen. For all we know at the moment the fault may lie with Halliburton, the outfit that had just poured the seal between the drill casing and the pipe bringing up the oil. Of course BP ist still at the bottom of the litigation and liability hill, but physically it might not have been their doing. And who manufactured the BOP, the Blow Out Preventer valve that didn't function? Still BP's responsibility, but did they create the actual flaw in that valve? Nobody will know for months to years.

The broadest picture: worldwide, man on earth is like an infestation of flees on a dog. We destroy and poison the planet by our very existence. Asphalt parking lots instead of forrests. Factories polluting the air, farms (someone rightly cited farm runoff with respect to the Dead Zone in the Gulf south in the outflow of the Mississippi), the City of New York dumping a couple million tons of garbage a month into the Atlantic, environmental cesspools all over the former USSR, India, Bangladesh; deforestation of the rain forest; strip mining in southern Africa; hell, we've even put a few thousand pieces of junk into orbit around the planet. When the white man came to north America, a squirrel could travel from Canada to the Gulf Coast without ever touching the ground. Passanger pigeons were so numerous their flocks of tens of thousands would blot out the sky. Buffalo. Florida panther. Etc. BP disasters, Chernobles, Valdezes -- they are going to happen. As a race we are what we are. One day we will poison ourselves into extinction, and most of the higher species of plant and animal life with us.

[Lady_Passion]

Rush schmush.... he's a charismatic, opportunistic loser. Big fish in a little pond, not much different than Sean Hannity.

Used to enjoy going on their forums and baiting for kicks. Been banned from Hannity's site twice :.)

As for environmentalists causing the oil spills, I dunno about that. Seems they'd be more likely to do something they could milk in a smaller way for longer, similar to PETA activists. Hard to imagine any environmentalist doing something so drastic, knowing more than most people what the effects would be.

[12voltman59]

Lady P---I love the quotes--but wow--I thought it was Reagan who said "trust but verify" :bigrin:

I really like the Cicero quote!! I have never heard that one--but I really, really like it!!

I am planting a big garden this year---just about one more week and in it goes.

I have myself a pretty good library too----don't have all the books I would like---but with books and music--no matter how much of each I might have--it would never be enough!!!

Here would be my suggestion to people like Rush and Hannity--instead of all the negative stuff--have your time of bitching, pissing and bemoaning that all is not right in the world--but it could be done in a funny way--and after the bitching is done---they could have on guests that instead of bitching, pissing and moaning too---they would offer up real, substantive, workable and constructive option plans from the conservative perspective on what they want done and instead of demonzing the other--in a friendly way----they could say something like---"we have our view of things and we think the conservative way is best and our liberal friends as well intentioned they might be--they are just plain wrong on just about everything and that we conservatives offer the best solutions to America's problems. Get out my friends and do some good in your community, be an example to our liberal friends. Find people who, from a conservative perspective want to serve your communities--or do run for office yourself at all levels but dedicate yourself to doing what you think is best for America as a conservative---get out and vote, write your elected officals or call them. Let them know what is on your mind and your views on the important issues."

Now that would be a conservtive talking head I would listen to--not one who pitches fits, is a nasty old oaf, demonizes "the others" and all that other crap!!!!!

It would do so much good for this country if we could get more media heads on both sides who were like that!! I guess that would be too good and may not "sell" what passes as a conservative agenda today since it makes way too much sense and would be reasonable.

[Lady_Passion]

Haha!

Damon Runyon outdates Reagan, however I could be wrong according to this:

http://scattergather.razorfish.com/654/2009/08/03/blinded-by-content-bliss/


I'm leaving it as is though :.)


Always been a fan of Marcus Tullius Cicero as an orator and debater.

Stumbled upon the 'trust but verify' quote while working as a voting activist.

Growing up amidst tremendous racial bias and moving church to church, with each new one dissing the last I attended, the Medgar Evers quote has stuck with me since I was kid. When I was a teen, I actually embroidered that one on a pair of jeans.

[TaylorMade]

Agreed. That is a fact. Though, the term 'drug addict carries connotations of backrooms, lighting up, medical rubber bands around the arms and needles in the veins. Being addicted to pain killers is different by orders of magnitude.



This, however, is not a fact. It's conjecture with nothing to support it.




What if he did? No offense hun, but that's how it's marketed. I seem to recall a ton of DVDs on the shelf of "Shemales #3 *wildest EVER*" and so on and so forth. Of the very many intelligent reasons you might have to dislike Rush (I don't blame anyone who doesn't like him), this is not one of them. It's as stupid as blacks who changed what was PC to call them after the civil rights movement. I've been around a bit, so i remember it going from colored, to black, to African American, to Afro American, and back to black. I remember that it was used as a 'gotcha' on an all too frequent basis by blacks who had an ax to grind (or is that African American?).

I usually love your arguments because they are well thought out. Even when I disagree, I like reading your stuff. Here, however, your argument here is pure emotion.

Rush had a point. That people don't like Rush should be meaningless. Take away Rush from the equation. Is it possible that an evironmentalist organization would do something like this with the goal of getting off shore drilling to be stopped? Is it possible? Yes. Is it what happened? I don't know. But, it is well within the realm of possibility, and it is not insane to contemplate.

Pasa

That is what I am saying. All I am saying.

<SIGH>

*Taylor*

[TaylorMade]

Taylor--I am attacking Rush Limbaugh for his public persona and the negativity that he brings to the world----all the man does is bitch, piss and moan about things--but he NEVER---really ever offers any sort of positive contributions on how to "make things right or better" other than to say that "you have to get rid of all those liberal types and their policies, then everything will be just fine with the world!"

Do you listen to him? Has he actually said those EXACT words? And how are they different from your antagonism of him?All I'm seeing here is not a contradiction of the point I stand in agreement with him about (ALF and ELF have a history of doing violence and sabotage in the name of the environment), but you running your mouth just to tear another person down.

How - - small - - of you. And you spend ALOT of time doing this.


I have heard from people who say that in person--Rush is a nice guy, is personable and all ---but like I said----the face he presents to the public--in my view----is nothing but negative. He has no qualms about saying all kinds of nasty, nasty things about any person, group, organization or whatever that he does not agree with and for him---in his public persona--there can be no quarter given to those who don't agree with the almighty and all knowing "El Rushbo" or whatever he calls himself.

On most of our money there are stamped these words---"E Pluribus Unum"--"From The Many--ONE!!"

Then maybe you should start with the ONE you can control... yourself. You're just as negative as you claims he is, if not MORE. He probably can laugh at himself, probably in the light that so many people let him live rent-free in their heads, or let hate of him and those like him dwell in their hearts. Maybe if you evicted some of your bitterness toward him and other Conservatives. . .you'd have a little more room to reach out toward that "one".


I might be idealistic---but I do believe in that motto as a guiding way to do things--in this country----we are supposed to be about coming together--in spite of our differences to work together for the common good----but thanks to people like Rush Limbaugh---a hard enough ideal to work to attain under less polarized conditions becomes all the much harder if not downright impossible thakns to the fact that he encourages so many people to not be reasonable, to not listen to "liberals/progressives" dissmissing anything and anyone who comes from that side of things out of hand--and in a turn around--with all the nasty things he says about "liberals/progressives" being so evil, bad and all---it makes them less willing to work with and find some common ground with those who are followers of people like Rush and the rest of his type.

And you are making it better by being even more nasty than him online. Nice work, d00d.


They have as I keep saying--"helped to POISON THE WELL!!"'

This is my problem with Senor Limbaugh!!

If he were just another rich, fat, old white man pissed off about whatever shit it is that pisses him off, spouting about that stuff with family and friends---I would not give a second though to him---but that he is on the air---day after day----spouting his poison, with millions of listeners and fans who he encourages them to act in the same way --that is why he fires me up so!!!!

Racism, sizeism and class warfare - -oh My. You can do what many have already done -- turn him off. Ask your friend to do so. Pretend he doesn't exist. Your bitterness seems to be not a stand against, but it bolsters his point.

And he didn't have to do shit.


I don't apologize at all for not giving that man any slack--he doesn't deserve any in my view since he obviously has no intention of ever chaging his modus operandi!!!!

I can tell ya--I have lost "friendships" with people who were such big Rush fans--THEY could never give it a rest and not at least let us come to the point that "we can agree to disagree on most things and I can accept that you have your views and I hope that you respect mine"--but no----those Rush Limbaugh "Dittoheads" could not let it go that I am of "the liberal persuasion"---so our "friendships" such as they were--had to come to an end!!" I wonder how many father and sons, or brothers or sisters don't talk to each other, or at least have a distance from one another thanks to Rush?? Even if it is just a relative handful--that is way too many people in that situation!! All because of someone like Rush!

I know that I am not the only person to have experienced this--and it goes both ways with some liberal people I have known cutting off the conservatives they know from their lives because someone they knew was such a "dittohead!"

I'd love to hear their side of the story - - because if this is how you talk in real life... I wouldn't want such a bitter person apart of my circle either.

*Taylor*

[TaylorMade]

A broken clock may be right 2x a day, but I dont use it to check the time.

He was condeming drug use while he was using drugs, that does make him a hypocrit, yes.

Like I said respect earns you respect.

http://www.liberty-news.com/cartoons/RushLimbaughWasHigh.gif

He's MEAN . . .and a poopy head!

So, what does that have to do with the point he made that I stand in agreement with? No one's given me a substantive reason as to WHY thinking a group like ALF or ELF wouldn't want to destroy our oil supply.

*Taylor*

[MarieDelta]

He's MEAN . . .and a poopy head!

So, what does that have to do with the point he made that I stand in agreement with? No one's given me a substantive reason as to WHY thinking a group like ALF or ELF wouldn't want to destroy our oil supply.

*Taylor*

Typically ALF and Elf are smaller scale attacks.

I was there in that area when they pulled that BS. It was one or two extremist.

They werent into large scale damage of the environment, because, duh, that doesnt help their cause.

Burning down a hummer dealership does, because it shows up how much oil they burn.

Spiking trees does it because it makes it hazardous to work in a mill or as a logger.

Not that I agree with either of these actions.

All sabotaging an oil well like this would do it point out how much of an asshole they are. In the process destroying the one thing they are trying to save (the environment.)

In addition they would have taken credit, as they did in the prior actions. Most terrorist groups love to take credit for actions as it gets their message out (duh.)

I could see it on land, but not at sea where its just going to spread.

Can you see the crew on this letting just anyone on the oil rig? Seriously?

Finally using Occams Razor, BP has a history of accidents and a failure to comply with OSHA (http://www.truthout.org/osha-safety-violations-bps-us-refineries-endanger-employees-lives59133)- QED it is most likely to have been the cause here.

[MarieDelta]

BP Accused of Violating Safety Regulations at US Refineries, Endangering Employees' Lives
Tuesday 04 May 2010

by: Jason Leopold, t r u t h o u t | Report



BP Plc's troubles are not just limited to its Gulf of Mexico operations, where a deadly blast aboard a drilling rig two weeks ago ruptured an oil well 5,000 feet below the sea's surface and triggered a massive oil leak that is now the size of a small country.

The oil conglomerate is also facing serious charges from the Labor Department's Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA) that it "willfully" failed to implement safety measures at its Texas City refinery following an explosion that killed 15 employees and injured 170 others five years ago.

The refinery is the third largest in the country and has a capacity to refine 475,000 barrels of crude oil per day. OSHA found BP to be in violation of more than 300 health and safety regulations and, in 2005, fined the company $21.4 million, at the time the largest in the agency's history. In 2007, BP paid a $50 million fine and pleaded guilty to a felony for not having written guidelines in place at the refinery and for exposing employees to toxic emissions. BP, which earned $19 billion in 2005, settled with the victims' families for $1.6 billion.

BP was placed on three years probation and the Department of Justice agreed not to pursue additional criminal charges against the company as long as BP agreed to undertake a series of corrective safety measures at the refinery ordered by OSHA.

Several investigations launched in the aftermath of the refinery explosion concluded that BP's aggressive cost-cutting efforts in the area of safety, the use of outdated refinery equipment and overworked employees contributed to the blast, which, according to John Bresland, the chairman of the independent US Chemical Safety Board (CSB), was caused "when a distillation tower flooded with hydrocarbons and was over-pressurized, causing a geyser-like release from the vent stack. The hydrocarbons found an ignition source [a truck that backfired] and exploded."

Bresland, whose organization spent two years probing the circumstances behind the explosion, said that CSB's investigation, completed in 2007, "found organizational and safety deficiencies at all levels of the BP Corporation."
"It was the most comprehensive and detailed investigation the CSB has ever done," Bresland said March 24, marking the fifth anniversary of the refinery explosion. "Our investigation team turned up extensive evidence showing a catastrophe waiting to happen. That cost-cutting had affected safety programs and critical maintenance; production pressures resulted in costly mistakes made by workers likely fatigued by working long hours; internal audits and safety studies brought problems to the attention of BP's board in London, but they were not sufficiently acted upon. Yet the company was proud of its record on personnel safety."

Since then, according to OSHA, BP has not only failed to comply with the terms of its settlement agreement, it has knowingly committed hundreds of new violations that continue to endanger the lives of its refinery workers.
"When BP signed the OSHA settlement from the March 2005 explosion, it agreed to take comprehensive action to protect employees," Secretary of Labor Hilda Solis said in a statement last October. "Instead of living up to that commitment, BP has allowed hundreds of potential hazards to continue unabated."

"BP was given four years to correct the safety issues identified pursuant to the settlement agreement, yet OSHA has found hundreds of violations of the agreement and hundreds of new violations. BP still has a great deal of work to do to assure the safety and health of the employees who work at this refinery," added acting Assistant Secretary of Labor for OSHA Jordan Barab, whose agency conducted a six-month review of BP's Texas City refinery operations to determine if the oil company complied with provisions of the settlement. "The fact that there are so many still outstanding life-threatening problems at this plant indicates that they still have a systemic safety problem in this refinery."

Specifically, OSHA said it found 439 new "willful" violations by BP related to "failures to follow industry-accepted controls on the pressure relief safety systems and other process safety management violations."


http://www.truthout.org/osha-safety-violations-bps-us-refineries-endanger-employees-lives59133

[void()]

What I find really humorous is that since oil seems so dangerous to the enviornment, now we are plotting to build more nuclear plants ! Gee wizz, nothing ever goes wrong with them.:rotate: We don't want to face an enviornmental dissaster that will take decades to clean up so we choose a technology that produces toxic byproducts that must be successfully contained for 50000 years? And we are choosing this because we cant contain oil safely? Some days I think humanity must deserve extinction!

I hear you and understand. Reminds me of the movie Twelve Monkeys. Love the quote by Brad Pitt's character, "F*** the Bozos!"

But yes, thinking about nuclear as an alternative source is really disheartening as well. Wonder about this 'green energy' stuff I keep hearing/reading about. Or, is it just a hoax that hydro electric can work? Maybe the sun's heat can't be turned into energy either. Oh and forget those pesky wind turbines, they merely clutter up the golfing greens.

I have been looking at a book called Ancient Inventions. In this book they describe a hypocaust (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypocaust). This seems to make sense to me as a possible way to build a house. You might even try tapping into geothermal as a means of an eternal furnace. Ah but shoot, Ah don't know nothing, Ah'm just some dumb country bumpkin.

[TaylorMade]

Typically ALF and Elf are smaller scale attacks.

I was there in that area when they pulled that BS. It was one or two extremist.

They werent into large scale damage of the environment, because, duh, that doesnt help their cause.

Burning down a hummer dealership does, because it shows up how much oil they burn.

Spiking trees does it because it makes it hazardous to work in a mill or as a logger.

Not that I agree with either of these actions.

All sabotaging an oil well like this would do it point out how much of an asshole they are. In the process destroying the one thing they are trying to save (the environment.)

In addition they would have taken credit, as they did in the prior actions. Most terrorist groups love to take credit for actions as it gets their message out (duh.)

I could see it on land, but not at sea where its just going to spread.

Can you see the crew on this letting just anyone on the oil rig? Seriously?

Finally using Occams Razor, BP has a history of accidents and a failure to comply with OSHA (http://www.truthout.org/osha-safety-violations-bps-us-refineries-endanger-employees-lives59133)- QED it is most likely to have been the cause here.

Thank you for pointing that out. I admit it hadn't totally occurred to me, but when you throw in that we've had pirates and people in times square and all the rest of it - - terror sometimes seems like a logical answer.

But stupidity is always bringing up the rear.

*Taylor*

[bim49686]

It is ashame what happened but read the following.Somtimes we jump on the banned wagon way to early before we know all the facts.Mother nature can and does create more havic than we are aware of or kept from knowing to help with a alterior agenda.Just a thought.

Originally Posted by Mohawk5

How do we know the effects are not as devastating?

http://bungalowbillscw.blogspot.com/...ean-floor.html

"Oil is a natural organic substance. It’s as much part of the earth as the water and the land. While the big story today is Obama sending swat teams to the Gulf of Mexico to inspect the rigs for terrorists activities, the other story of the day is the huge oil spill in the Gulf of Mexico because of the explosion. The media compares it to the Exxon Valdez today claiming it could be worse.

The truth is oil is a natural part of our oceans. In the Gulf of Mexico alone, over 5,000 barrels of oil a day seeps out from vents in the earth into the ocean. It’s part of the natural cycle, but few will speak of this truth today. Oil is a natural substance. It’s part of the earth, and obviously ocean life continues every year despite over two million barrels of oil escaping in the Gulf of Mexico alone—a very small body of water compared to the Oceans, which experience the same phenomenon. If the Gulf can survive two million barrels a year, just think how much seepage takes place in any of the oceans. It would probably be enough to make an environmentalist sick."

[void()]

"All sabotaging an oil well like this would do it point out how much of an asshole they are. In the process destroying the one thing they are trying to save (the environment.)

In addition they would have taken credit, as they did in the prior actions. Most terrorist groups love to take credit for actions as it gets their message out (duh.)"


MD I can understand your view here. But I can also grasp Taylor's view.

I need to scribble it down a little to have sense of it. Bear with me.

Using your two points above, let's examine counterpoints.

If you are fighting a war that ultimately you are going lose, then isn't suicide as an act of defiance an option? Think like a soldier, a warrior. "Damn the enemy, they'll not get the prize either." It's an ancient strategy, was ancient even before the Romans put it into common use. Shoot, even children are instinctively aware of it. That's human nature.

So, even if it meant losing the prize I can see dumping cyanide in the well. Once you know yourself, you can know all others. And if spiting another that was oppressing me, or my family was the bitter last, you bet your life. People can and will do it. Sorry but it is what it is.

"Most terrorists," yes most do want you to know they did something. What does it matter though when you deal with consequences that rend a planet dead? There isn't anyone left to intimidate, why bother over credit?

And even if they did step up. Would you believe they did it? Could you fathom the rationality, or insanity behind such a thing? It only takes one rotten apple in a barrel to spoil the whole barrel. This is why attempting to abolish hate is a total lose. You just entice more hate by removing all that anybody can hate. Love doesn't exist without hate. Nature abhors a vacuum. Balance is needed.

Besides, no matter what you do ... you can please some only some of the time but not all forever all the time. Someone would ultimately be offended, feel hurt, resent, hate and so on the cycle goes. Uh huh, I'm plugging that evolution thing again. We gotta evolve and I don't care what you believe as long as you have faith in hope. "Tomorrow will be better, I hope." That's how you take 'em one day atta. Right now, it's all we got.

[MarieDelta]

"All sabotaging an oil well like this would do it point out how much of an asshole they are. In the process destroying the one thing they are trying to save (the environment.)

In addition they would have taken credit, as they did in the prior actions. Most terrorist groups love to take credit for actions as it gets their message out (duh.)"


MD I can understand your view here. But I can also grasp Taylor's view.

I need to scribble it down a little to have sense of it. Bear with me.

Using your two points above, let's examine counterpoints.

If you are fighting a war that ultimately you are going lose, then isn't suicide as an act of defiance an option? Think like a soldier, a warrior. "Damn the enemy, they'll not get the prize either." It's an ancient strategy, was ancient even before the Romans put it into common use. Shoot, even children are instinctively aware of it. That's human nature.

So, even if it meant losing the prize I can see dumping cyanide in the well. Once you know yourself, you can know all others. And if spiting another that was oppressing me, or my family was the bitter last, you bet your life. People can and will do it. Sorry but it is what it is.

"Most terrorists," yes most do want you to know they did something. What does it matter though when you deal with consequences that rend a planet dead? There isn't anyone left to intimidate, why bother over credit?

And even if they did step up. Would you believe they did it? Could you fathom the rationality, or insanity behind such a thing? It only takes one rotten apple in a barrel to spoil the whole barrel. This is why attempting to abolish hate is a total lose. You just entice more hate by removing all that anybody can hate. Love doesn't exist without hate. Nature abhors a vacuum. Balance is needed.

Besides, no matter what you do ... you can please some only some of the time but not all forever all the time. Someone would ultimately be offended, feel hurt, resent, hate and so on the cycle goes. Uh huh, I'm plugging that evolution thing again. We gotta evolve and I don't care what you believe as long as you have faith in hope. "Tomorrow will be better, I hope." That's how you take 'em one day atta. Right now, it's all we got.

Terrorist arent soldiers, they dont think like soldiers.

Their most important goal is to make sure that the thing they have done carries with it a message of terror, otherwise they havent succeeded. To provoke a reaction in the intended subject, that is their fundamental goal.


Most of the actions done by ALF and ELF have been lower tech actions. Environmentalist arent keen on tech.

To do this would have required a more than passing knowledge of the oil industry.

I could see Al Qaeda, or some other ORg like that pulling this,but not an enviromental org.

However, again BP has a history of past accidents. They are still following the same MO. They have a culture of ignoring OSHA. This is a problem.

“Never ascribe to malice that which can adequately be explained by incompetence” - Napoleon Bonaparte


I agree on the evolution thing BTW...

[MarieDelta]

...What's notable about the nearly two dozen of the alleged violations at Husky, is that one matches allegations first leveled against BP a year ago by a whistleblower who said the company had been operating its Gulf Coast drilling platform Atlantis, the world's largest and deepest semi-submersible oil and natural gas platform, located about 200 miles south of New Orleans, without a majority of the necessary engineering and design documents, a violation of federal law.

As Truthout reported last week, the whistleblower said BP risked a catastrophic oil spill, far worse than the one that began two weeks ago after the Deepwater Horizon explosion, because BP did not have updated or complete Piping and Instrument Diagrams (P&IDs) for the Atlantis subsea components. P&IDs documents form the foundation of a hazards analysis BP is required to undertake as part of its Safety and Environmental Management Program related to its offshore drilling operations. P&IDs drawings provide the schematic details of the project's piping and process flows, valves and safety-critical instrumentation.

In OSHA's list of alleged violations at Husky, the agency said BP failed to "assure the accuracy of P&IDs ... and proper documentation of pressure relief design


IF someone stepped up I might believe them. However it would depend upon credibility. At this time I do not find this to be a credible accusation. Based upon best available evidence.

[FalconAngel]

Jesus. . . it's about oil, and somehow you just GOTTA get a smack in on the Christians. Oil - - and somehow, it's all the Christians fault. So my music pastor must be a closet pagan b/c he recycles like crazy, has a scooter instead of a car, went vegan, and wants the church to get a hybrid.

FGSFDS.

Come ON!

*Taylor*


Can't blame me for that one, this time. I only blame the Christians when it has to do with them. Directly or connectively demonstrated.

[FalconAngel]

Well, with groups like ALF and ELF out there. . . it's not as far out as you think. Many of these groups attempt to spike trees to hurt loggers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tree_spiking), it's established many uber-environmentalists don't CARE about the loss of human life, and are penny wise and pound foolish in their actions...They burn down hummer dealerships (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/09/19/national/main574260.shtml) - -releasing the chemicals from the car into the air.

Knowing this. . .is it worth ridicule simply because ... oh, God Forbid, RUSH said it? That's not to say I believe him. I'm just saying he ain't as "Dumb" as you want to paint him. . . The ALF-er/ELF-er style environmentalists have the mentality and the motive. . .they probably don't have the means (that we know of). As to the administration being involved? That's lame.

See how easy that was?

You call yourself PC and open minded... It seems the doors only swing one way.

*Taylor*


I have never called myself PC.

I happen to know, for a fact, that PC is the venue of morons who are unable to see the forest through the trees. And open-minded? Pretty much but if it walks like a duck, talks like a duck and acts like a duck, then it is a duck.
Or as my grandparents used to say, "call a spade a spade".

As far as the eco-terrorists, you are absolutely right on the mark. They do not consider the consequences of their actions.......ever.

[FalconAngel]

This is the problem when a person becomes so indoctrinated into a political party. To try and make a comparison between these two events simply so you can point a critical finger at Obama or the "liberal media" reveals a malice and a party loyalty that has essentially closed your mind to any open rational conclusion outside of the "Party Mantra"......it's Obama's fault....it's Obama's fault...Obama is the Evil One....the Liberals control the Media...all Media (except FOX) is of the Evil One...

First, FEMA is set up to deal primarily with natural disasters - Katrina was not only a natural disaster, but one that didn't take anyone by surprise. So yes, FEMA under the last administration dropped the ball on that one. (And the media pointed it out. Perhaps some radicals let their own political bias blind them and they too made some stupid remarks against former Pres. Bush.)

Secondly, the current disaster in the Gulf is a man-made one - and a unique situation of scope, magnitude and complexity which has never been faced before. And as has been mentioned previously in this thread the multi-national corporation in charge of the operation who should have had layered contingency plans in place did not. So FEMA is now trying to deal with a totally new type of disaster. (A side note; BP (the party at fault) has a less than stellar record for safety and corporate good citizenship. I don't think it was mentioned yet, but BP was also recently fined by the Alaskan DER for negligence on the Trans-Alaskan Pipeline after neglected maintenance led to an oil spill in the Arctic - oops, they said they were sorry - haha!)

Your criticism reveals your bias. Perhaps the reason the "media" has not taken a stand more to your liking is because they recognize the difference between the two situations.

But aside from political swipes, I would hope that this "wake-up call" will indeed awaken all of the world to the dangers associated with offshore oil exploration (and transport). The people and nations of the world should hold these corporate barons to task and force them to develop the safeguards before they begin to punch holes in the ocean floors. Much of Alaska's shoreline is ruined for the foreseeable future - now I believe much of the Gulfs shoreline will be as well. The real question is; will the governments of the nations have the leadership to resist the corporate bribe and say enough is enough.

The really stupid thing is that Limbaugh blames Obama for allowing the supposed eco-terrorists to supposedly make an attack when Obama was the one that gave the go ahead to start drilling more in the Gulf.

So what he is babbling about makes no sense...................unless he is running to the realm of major government conspiracy. And if he does that, then he has to accept some of the 9-11 conspiracies, too.

I think that he's just being the typical, party line singing, right wing Republican; just as he has always been.

[FalconAngel]

He's MEAN . . .and a poopy head!

Poopy head? Taylor. I am aghast at such harsh words! :eek::bigrin::bigrin::tong:

But really. I don't disagree that any of those, or other splinter groups, would do such a thing. He is really reaching when he says that the President that authorized the drilling allowed the event to occur. He just says anything that supports the Republican party line and/or can be used, no matter how tenuously, to harm other parties.

[FalconAngel]

Thank you for pointing that out. I admit it hadn't totally occurred to me, but when you throw in that we've had pirates and people in times square and all the rest of it - - terror sometimes seems like a logical answer.

But stupidity is always bringing up the rear.

*Taylor*

Actually, in cases like that, stupidity is usually leading the way. If it didn't, then we wouldn't have most of these problems.

Remember the old adage of "never underestimate the power of human stupidity, particular when it involves large numbers of humans".

[mariersa]

What??? San Francisco is sending human cut hair wrapped in hosiery to help soak up the oil??? huh, well i guess that might be plausible not sure but maybe, guess it couldn't hurt any, unless your a hungry fish, oops that would be another catastrophe.

[MarieDelta]

What??? San Francisco is sending human cut hair wrapped in hosiery to help soak up the oil??? huh, well i guess that might be plausible not sure but maybe, guess it couldn't hurt any, unless your a hungry fish, oops that would be another catastrophe.

Not just SF, its salons and pet groomers through out the US

the hair can soak up 50 gals for each leg, think about how much oil that is!!

[Bluebiyou]

And now the slick seems to be caught in an eddy current. The gulf circulates in a counter clockwise direction, and with the Mississippi exiting at the tip of Louisiana's boot, it seems for the moment, to be holding. But in vain... no large scale 'skimmers' are going to come along and vacuum this 90 mile by 50 mile slick. Whatever we do now to clean the actual slick will have more repercussions than the visual beach cleaning.
And, I'm afraid crude oil does sink.
After the volatile components mostly evaporate (most of the gasoline stuff) the remaining sludge will sink to make tar balls on the ocean floor; gently releasing their toxins for many years to come.
If we ('we' as a planet) were lucky, it would be all blowing to shore to make nasty beaches (where it would be far more easily collectible and 'cleaned up'); but that's thinking long term "good".
But to hope this will provide any 'lesson'...
We ('we' as a planet) will burn 90% of the remaining oil reserves in the next 50 years. No matter what we try to do.
Will we ('we' as a planet) learn anything?
I have to agree with Void.
We are animals, intelligent on occasion, but animals first.
We will learn nothing. Look how quickly we've forgotten the most important tenants of WWII and the NAZI rise to power?
We are going to continue breeding until overpopulation/energy(and the food energy provides) ratio provide a 'die off'.
Even our energy conscious Mikey3000 had 3 children, far beyond the 1 child per couple for a maintainable global future. China DID have at least that one speck of wisdom.
Sorry to pick on you Mikey, but we're all hypocrites, not just you. It's great you try to do the best you consciously can.
I'm going to have to write an article or start a thread about NAZIs, and the real lessons we should have learned (only a few did), that have little to do with Germans, Swastikas, or Jews.

[darkeyes]

Even our energy conscious Mikey3000 had 3 children, far beyond the 1 child per couple for a maintainable global future. China DID have at least that one speck of wisdom.


..is an interestin thing wot the Chinese do.. dusn work perfectly... ne thin but cos population ther still shootin through the roof.. 2 continue 2 progress an prospa we need 2 continue 2 expand in numbas.. thats the theory ne way.. cos if we begin 2 contract in numbas or jus stay the same we get stale an moribund... an think on this, Blue.. if every cupple who cud only had 2 kids 'ventually we wud die out.. arguably no bad thing but am quite fond a me kind.. an think in lotsa ways wud b a pity.. is gonna b interestin an a lil scary if we around wen ther cums a population collapse.. its bound 2 happen sum day.. has before, an no doubt, even allowin for our science an medicine, me reckons it will 'gain..:eek:

[Bluebiyou]

Agreed Fran (God! I love ya and want to ravage ya fer jus how ya think ya Scottish Tart!)!
But at the rate of one blessed one per couple (worldwide), in a tousand yeas the population would be sustainable.

There's nothing to sustain our current population, let alone growth, in 70 years. We, despite our intelligence, are breeding, and breeding, and breeding... like lemmings or buffalo stampeding for a cliff, that any child born this day in 2010 will see this die off, before natural death of old age.
We've known this (progression of breeding problem) since the 1960's.
More recently, we've developed formulas for how much cheap oil it takes to make fertilizer, pesticide, sow, and reap crops. Cheap oil will end soon. We're already past the mathematical point of 'max' (around 1997-2007).
And there will be wars... disasters, developing countries that just want their share of petrol...
If the United States got rid of every illegal Mexican who entered in the last 40 years and prevented any new entries... we could last a few decades longer, but we're doomed. The flow won't stop, only increase. Mexico is already dying, unsustainable.
People, enjoy our riches, our vast wealth of food, air conditioning, heating, automobiles, furniture, housing, plastics, plenty. Their time is over, coming to an end.
The very poorest of us would be deemed as fantastically wealthy 1/2 short century in the future.

[darkeyes]

Wen its cums 2 bein ravaged blue me has sum 1 quite capable a keepin me moren happy on that score tyvm..;)

..but is a sad an scary ole world we liv in huh? Jus wy me is so optimistic bout things jus hav nev been able 2 work out cos we r indeed headed for a big bloody shock in a decade or 2...:rolleyes:

[Pasadenacpl2]

China has a problem these days. They don't have enough female children. Seems that their policy has led to female babies being aborted (or killed after birth) because with a 1 child maximum, boys are preferred so that they can work.

Wisdom, indeed.

Pasa

[void()]

"Terrorist arent soldiers, they dont think like soldiers.

Their most important goal is to make sure that the thing they have done carries with it a message of terror, otherwise they havent succeeded. To provoke a reaction in the intended subject, that is their fundamental goal."

Eh, I think we might be splitting hairs and saying the same thing in a way. I kind of disagree that terrorists aren't soldiers. They use a systematic approach to intimidate. Put a uniform on someone, they intimidate. But you don't need an actual literal uniform, especially if you wrap someone in ideas. And it can be any idea, religion or politics, economic status.

And yes, I understand BP has been running afoul for a while. I would think such par for the course in the field. But I'm not on a rig, or in a suit in corporate. I don't know anything of it and can admit that. I do know coal miners by extension, though. They always seem running afoul merely to keep the coal coming, reckon oil business is about the same. So, yep I can see someone making a blunder as the cause of it.

We're all human after all.

[12voltman59]

It does seem that in spite of all the claims to the contrary--the oil companies had no idea at all at how to stop a oil leak of this sort since they don't seem to be having more than marginal success at stopping the leaking of oil.

Now the researchers out there tracking the oil say it is now entering the Gulf of Mexico loop current which means at some point---the oil will make its way east to the coast of Florida, to the Florida Keys then out into the Atlantic---so many places are going to face getting this oil come ashore from the SE US coast, the western islands of the Bahamas, on up to the central and northern US Atlantic coast, Bermuda, the Martiime Provences of Canada and on to the British Isles and parts of Europe.

They don't exactly know how much oil is spilling into the Gulf at this point with researchers saying the rate of oil coming out is far in excess of the amount that BP has said it is.

They do say that even at the most conservative estimates--this "spill" has now surpassed that amount put out in the Exxon Valdez disaster, and we are nowhere near to getting the flow stopped.

What a cluster fuck this all is!!