Pagan Vs Christian

[Insatiablesavell]

I was wondering what the basic concensus is in the bisexual community regarding religion. I was wondering if most where Pagan or Christian? My husband and I are pagan what are you???

[The Barefoot Contess]

Atheist, thank god :rolleyes:

[Skater Boy]

Atheist, thank god :rolleyes:

I think I'm divided between Atheism and Agnosticism. But I am more sympathetic to Paganism than Christianity at present, partly due to Paganism's more tolerant attitudes towards homosexuality.

[the mage]

Opposed to the existence of "religion".

I have no problem with God if it actually exists.

[Lorcan]

GOD is to Religions as
Elephant is to Blind men

[ziggybabie]

I'm an agnostic theist. I do, however, think most religions whether "white light", traditional or old world and pagan, all have some good philosophies, morals or lessons to be learned. And most religions have some negatives, also. (kinda like Harry Potter for adults. Yay scifi! :) ) Which is just one of the reasons I see the danger in taking BELIEFS so seriously, as factual information.

That all goes with the whole ying and yang thing. A bit of good in evil and a bit of evil in good. Even Mother Theresa had some evil and even Hitler had some good. Philosophy > Religion. EVERYTHING must be looked at critically and from all sides.

Even though I lean towards thinking SOMETHING exists, we can't live our life according to a figure that has not given us enough proof of his/her/it's existence, and IF there is a higher power, I can't see them punishing good people for something they had no earthly way of knowing. (Which "religion" or set of beliefs was correct.) Then again, maybe he/she/it's malevolent or apathetic. Eh, whatever. Not my concern, either way, until I know more.

[ziggybabie]

That said, I do feel more in tune with pagan faiths than Christianity, on a philosophical level.

[TaylorMade]

Christian. I kinda like the whole minority within a minority within a minority thing. :p

*Taylor*

[darkeyes]

Atheist, thank god :rolleyes:

Me an all Contess... funny how we athiests tend 2 say thank God..me dus it all time..an it aint wishful thinkin eitha ne holy Jo's who mite think othawise... bit like sayin for fuks sake.. but dus believe in that... a lot!:bigrin:

[shadowsaffinity]

i think there is a mixture of beliefs in the bi community, but i myself am christian. most of my exes are pagan though, one was christo-pagan. :)

[TaylorMade]

Kind of to piggy back on this. . .I saw this article on Cracked.com. . .I think we all could do well to read it and take its advice to heart.

The God Fuse: 10 Things Atheists AND Christians can agree on (http://www.cracked.com/article_15663_god-fuse-10-things-christians-atheists-can-agree-on.html)

*Taylor*

[FalconAngel]

We are Pagan, following in the Gardenerian tradition.

We started as Catholic in our younger years and left Christianity behind when we realized that it refused to answer the real questions.

This is the one religion that, to us, makes sense. There is none of that "Take it on faith" crap in Paganism and we like the fact that there is no real discrimination amongst us.
Those who practice hate and prejudice usually do not last long in Pagan religions. They either learn tolerance and grow or they leave for religions that help to enable their hatred because that particular sect or religion tolerates, and sometimes encourages it.

Not to say that we are trying to recruit more people, but if someone chooses this path of their own free will, they oftentimes stay on it. Some don't, however, simply because they were looking for a way and found that this is not the one for them.
Pagans know and understand that not all paths are valid for everyone, but all paths to spirituality are valid. One just needs to find the one that fits them.

[12voltman59]

I am a bit of both I guess----I have pretty much decided--I will never again be an adherent to any sort of religion--but I am spiritual and do believe in more than simply the purely physical nature of the mutliverse we are part of and I think that our physical body is only the tip of the iceberg that is our true nature.

I do like science for the most part--it is very good at describing the nature of the physical world we inhabit-but yet each day--theoritical physicists are expanding our understanding of all of that, but science cannot totally describe the more etherial aspects of existence and many scientists will state that very clearly. They also say that science and things of a spiritual nature do not have to be at odds. So for those things science will never be able to explain or describe according to the scienfic structure--I look elsewhere.

I like Buddhism and also like many aspects of the form of worship practiced by Native Americans (pre "discovery" time by Europeans)--and contrary to the negative spin to the contrary by Christians---Native American belief was not in any way fashion, "pagan" in the negative ways the Christians liked to catagorize the spriritual ways and beliefs of the Native peoples.

I do incorporate some elements of pagan/wiccanism as well into my beliefs.

With all of the things that have been in the news of late like the story of that British teacher being sentenced to 15 days in jail in Sudan for allowing her students to name a Teddy Bear "Muhammad"; riots over those cartoons about Muhammad; or that God is going to spite America because "God Hates Fags" and America apparently loves 'em since we don't go and at least jail or exterminate them according to that arse hole, the most disgusting Rev. Phelps and his low-wattage light bulb followers.

They did have demonstrations in Sudan in which some people called for the teacher to be executed for her "blasphemy."

No--- God or Allah does not really care about all of that petty shit--- if "HE" did not wipe us out for allowing the butchery done by folks like Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, the Bosnian Serbs, the Hutus and Tutus, and what is going on now in Sudan and Darfur with all of those large scale slaughters of our fellow human beings and many more that I did not name--then face it folks---
GOD DOESN'T REALLY GIVE A SHIT ABOUT WHAT WE DO DOWN HERE!!!

"HE" sure as shit is not going to get offended about us using his various names we have for "HIM" in "vain".

Get real!!!

I will bet that God is pissed off we seem to like to kill each other in massive ways and also seem to have no trouble destroying "HIS" creation, since this place we do live called Planet Earth is a rather rare place. So many of the right combinations came in play for us to come about here---it could not be a mere happenstance.


I really love what comedian Lewis Black now says on this subject in his recent stand-up routines: "These people are just plain bat shit crazy!!!!"

And I totally reject the notion that those who do not believe in God, by any definition, don't have any firm basis on which to live their lives beyond just being hedonistic--I say BS!!!

To me--the more humanistic belief systems actually have a much more firm foundation that encourages "good behavior" and conformity to a sensible level of human actions.

A resonable person realizes it is in her or his best interest to live cooperatively with his/her fellow human beings--I have found people of such mind--tend to be more accepting of those who are "not like me" and also realize---it is from our diversity that makes us stronger and more interesting as people and a culture.

It get me too---it so often seems to be the case--those who "go batshit crazy" about Darwin's Origin of the Species Scientific Theory (go look up the definition of a scientific theory in contrast to the common definition of the term "theory"-you will see it is vastly different)------hate The Theory of Evolution and who think "the jury is out on that" at best to totally rejecting the "theory"--have no problem practicing a form of "social Darwinism" since they are so often the ones who work so hard to dismantle the "social services net" and now are profiting from sending, on a widespread scale, decent middle class jobs out of places like the US, Canada and the UK ---shipping those jobs to places like China all in the name of profit!!!!

In America-let's face facts to--this country was not started to worship God--it was started to worship THE DOLLAR or the pound initially. In this country--we do have "Seperation of Church and State" well contained in our law, despite any spin to the contrary!!! From the very beginning of European settlement of this country--the real goal was not worshipping God--it was to make M-O-N-E-Y!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

As far as evolution is concerned---if you really study the whole process in which life came about on this world--including the development of our own species---it is really incredible and beautiful---and that does not take away from the notion of a "supreme being" -to me it makes the fact we came about all the more awesome and profound!!!! It also makes me want to know this "God" more--not a God with a bunch of thou shall nots and "I will smite you down if you don't worship me at my feet and check the intelligence I gave you at the door as a prerequisite of your worshipping me!!!"

And finally--there is no "War on Christmas" by those evil godless, "secular humanists" as they like to put in on FAUX News and other such places--Christmas has been under attack for a long time and if there is any "war" on Christmas, it was the mass, crass commercialization of the holiday by "captialists" that started that "war."

[diamond_tether]

We're more spiritual than religious, but He's a Taoist and She's Jewish (reform).

[DiamondDog]

Atheist, thank god :rolleyes:

Yes, I myself am agnostic, and sometimes an Atheist.

I don't mind people who are Xtian or Pagan but I don't like the pagans who are so adament about their religion and how right it is and how unlike Christianity it is that they're EXACTLY like certain Christians are.

[Cogent]

For Pagans, what does it mean to be pagan?

Do you really believe in gods other than the "one almighty" or is is kind of fiction that resonates within you.

Do you worship pagan gods in ceremonies or are these more social events? Do you find an expression of your sexuality in your religion?

Do you believe that some god or gods created the universe and things in it, like man, beasts, laws of nature... or are these issues a) not really important in your "religion." B) require a creator that is different than c) believe that the universe always was... and thus didn't have yo be created

Do you acknowledge the validity of other religions such as Hinduism, Shamanism, Islam, Judaism and Christianity? Are they "right" too. Or do you believe that you are right and others are wrong

[Skater Boy]

With all of the things that have been in the news of late like the story of that British teacher being sentenced to 15 days in jail in Sudan for allowing her students to name a Teddy Bear "Muhammad". They did have demonstrations in Sudan in which some people called for the teacher to be executed for her "blasphemy."

No--- God or Allah does not really care about all of that petty shit--- if "HE" did not wipe us out for allowing the butchery done by folks like Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, the Bosnian Serbs, the Hutus and Tutus, and what is going on now in Sudan and Darfur with all of those large scale slaughters of our fellow human beings and many more that I did not name--then face it folks---
GOD DOESN'T REALLY GIVE A SHIT ABOUT WHAT WE DO DOWN HERE!!!

"HE" sure as shit is not going to get offended about us using his various names we have for "HIM" in "vain".

Get real!!!

Yes, that was an interesting case. I guess it comes down to people who take it upon themselves to act in God's name, or defend every aspect of their own beliefs from those who may not share them. That and whether a human being can ever really be "in communion" with God.

But, she probably should've known better than to allow them to use that name, given the fact that she was living in a devoutly Muslim country.

IMHO, "religion" sometimes does the world more harm than good these days, and its often those who claim to be "religious" that are more evil than those who aren't.

Reminds me of the ol' psychological concept of "Projection".

[<<GOD>>]

Pagan of Course :rolleyes: a little Sunday hypocracy for Christ's sake.

<<GOD>>

[shameless agitator]

Atheist here & anti-religion. Opiate of the masses & all of that. This thread reminded me of a song though. check it out


ARTIST: Dar Williams
TITLE: The Christians and the Pagans
Lyrics and Chords


Amber called her uncle, said "We're up here for the holiday
Jane and I were having Solstice, now we need a place to stay"
And her Christ-loving uncle watched his wife hang Mary on a tree
He watched his son hang candy canes all made with red dye number three
He told his niece, "It's Christmas eve, I know our life is not your style"
She said, "Christmas is like Solstice, and we miss you and it's been awhile"

/ G C Am D / / Em C Am D / / G C Am D / /

So the Christians and the Pagans sat together at the table
Finding faith and common ground the best that they were able
And just before the meal was served, hands were held and prayers were said
Sending hope for peace on earth to all their gods and goddesses

/ G C Em D / / Em C Am D / Em C Am D G - /

The food was great, the tree plugged in, the meal had gone without a hitch
Till Timmy turned to Amber and said, "Is it true that you're a witch?"
His mom jumped up and said, "The pies are burning," and she hit the kitchen
And it was Jane who spoke, she said, "It's true, your cousin's not a Christian"
"But we love trees, we love the snow, the friends we have, the world we share
And you find magic from your God, and we find magic everywhere"

So the Christians and the Pagans sat together at the table
Finding faith and common ground the best that they were able
And where does magic come from, I think magic's in the learning
Cause now when Christians sit with Pagans only pumpkin pies are burning

When Amber tried to do the dishes, her aunt said, "Really, no, don't bother"
Amber's uncle saw how Amber looked like Tim and like her father
He thought about his brother, how they hadn't spoken in a year
He thought he'd call him up and say, "It's Christmas and your daughter's here"
He thought of fathers, sons and brothers, saw his own son tug his sleeve saying
"Can I be a Pagan?" Dad said, "We'll discuss it when they leave"

So the Christians and the Pagans sat together at the table
Finding faith and common ground the best that they were able
Lighting trees in darkness, learning new ways from the old, and
Making sense of history and drawing warmth out of the cold

[darkeyes]

Pagan of Course :rolleyes: a little Sunday hypocracy for Christ's sake.

<<GOD>>

How ya spell hypocrisy gain God me luff??? :bigrin:

[tatooedpunk]

Agnostic,bordering on athiest. I cannot believe the atrocities carried out in the name of religion

[Annika L]

Agnostic,bordering on athiest. I cannot believe the atrocities carried out in the name of religion

Given what I know of humans, I have no trouble believing in those atrocities, but I cannot hold any god or goddess responsible for the acts of self-interested humans. :tong:

[12voltman59]

Some people may read my post above and say: "Voltie, you are attacking my religious beliefs or attacking Christianity"

I have had this happen before and that is not what I am about--I am not about attacking all Christianity--just this virulent modern strain of fundamentalistic form we have today claming itself as the true way of Christianity.

This form that demands a strict adherence to a narrow set of values and beliefs and to me--- a form that is trying its damndest to get hold of the reigns of power to in order to use the big stick of big powerful government-- to force upon everyone--those things they cannot get people to accept by force of their moral suasion.

People like Pat Robertson state very clearly--"We want to see America become the Theocracy that God and the Founding Fathers intended it to be."

That of course, is revisionist history crap!!

Preachers like John Hagee now are pushing the line that like ancient Israel, America is a land also ordained to be in existence thanks to God. He says things like this: "God made a covenant with the Israelites to give them the land of Israel and he has made a covenant with us today in America making America the second true nation of God!"

I wish that I would win one of those big huge MegaMillions or Powerball Lottery jackpots--like when they get to be something like a hundred million or so--not to have to play with and all for I would take a few million--buy the shit material things that my material boy side wants--but to issue this challenge on an international basis---

"I will give the balance of my lottery jackpot winnings to anyone who can take the Bible--(let's say the King James version, since that is the version most protestant faiths seem to base their teachings upon--ironic that!!!) and have them point out to me--where in this book does it say: "To be a good and proper Christian in a land called America in the 21st Century-you have to also be a member of the Republican Party."

They would have to actually show me where the Good Book says that--not pulling out some verses that can be pretty much interpreted in a fashion anyone one wants.

I think my money would be safe--so then I would use it for philanthropic uses that in some small way--would make real differences in the lives of at least a few people.

I'd also like the good Reverend Hagee to point out where in the Bible it talks about the creation of a nation called America as well.

I won't ramble too much here--but what we have today in Christian religious faith ---is a clash between this atavistic form and the form of Christianity such as that from which those who opposed slavery in the 19th Century and those who championed civil rights laws in our own time sprang; the gap between those strains that excused and provided rationalizations for this evil war that our country inititated in Iraq and the strains that rallied against it; the strains that do not rise up in protest over the the ways multinational corporations exploit entire nations in the search for profit at all costs and those who in the name of religion, fight for the rights of those trampled by those corporations and also fight for true peace and justice everywhere including here in the United States that has one of the highest incarcertion rates in the world per capita--many of those serving time behind bars sentenced to long terms for nonviolent offenses like selling a few bags of pot---- and who should not be there at all.

The real "war" in religion--Islam, Judaism and certainly Christianity-is not really amongst and between these faiths--it is the battles raging from within each one---it sometimes seems the "dark side, Luke" of each one is winning at times (not so much in Judaism though) and the difference between the dark or light sides winning will mean whether religion will serve to improve our lot as a species or doom us---

Since in spite of declarations made in the past that "God is Dead!!" and "He" is not gonna go away anytime soon--my vote goes to the version of God that sees the value of faith and such in human affairs--that those good values inform and provide guideposts in our lives as individuals and a society--but do not control us---that we strive to live, as best we can in the model of a loving God and Christ--not the judgemental, fire and brimstone, angry God with vast amounts of shalls and shall nots that stiffle human freedom, actions and creativity.

Either way--it really does come down to being an issue of choice in which version of God we chose to hold--- since we cannot really ever truly prove the existence of God--"It's all on faith" right????---and since we are gonna have God around for awhile yet---I choose to hold a version of God that brings out the best in humanity--encourages it and nutures it--not the God that appeals to our baser emotions and such.

But alas----I am afraid that what I consider to be the best form of Christianity as embodied by people like Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., seems to be losing the race--(of course, Dr. King had his foibles--Hell--Jesus was perfect and they both got "whacked.")

I could go on--but I think you'all get my point----

[darkeyes]

Given what I know of humans, I have no trouble believing in those atrocities, but I cannot hold any god or goddess responsible for the acts of self-interested humans. :tong:

Amen 2 that yummie 1... :tong:

[TaylorMade]

Given what I know of humans, I have no trouble believing in those atrocities, but I cannot hold any god or goddess responsible for the acts of self-interested humans. :tong:

That's about right... some people come with the asshole built right in. . . religion is not the root of all conflict.

*Taylor*

[Azrael]

I guess I'd be a Pagan with some trappings of the Christianity of my youth.
I don't like getting all hung up on titles.
My spiritual perspective is a hybrid of all the useful parts of whatever I investigate. As the Baptist preacher in the psych unit with me called it"eat the meat, spit out the bones." I think he hit the nail on the head, so to say.
Or something.

[izzfan]

I've been Christian in the past, I've been pagan for a few months [a couple of years ago].... right now I'd say I'm pretty much agnostic, but I am very cynical about organised religion.

Izzfan :flag3:

[Long Duck Dong]

ex christian wiccan.........

over the years I have seen christians ( extremist, narrow minded, egoistical hypocritical ones... not the genuine, open minded christians ).. attack the hell outta my beliefs and my sexuality

so let me tell you about me..... lol..... I'm celibate.... lol..... single ( never married ) and not sexually active...lol..... man, god must really wanna strike me down with lightening for that one

I am also bisexual ( crime of the century )....lol.....and god really must have his knickers in a knot over that one........ a celibate bisexual.......lol call out the christian national quard....lol

I was bisexual natured before I was part of any faith and belief system.... so god had it in for me before I even worked out what that extra dangling bit was, between my legs...... males would know about it... its that thing that embarrasses you at school by jumping up to say hi at the worst possible moments....gets in the way of your zip.... and refuses to understand that pissing into a toilet when its rock hard, means that we have to learn to be a contortionist

then to make matters worse... i walked away from being a christian and became a wiccan person..... lol.... from the frying pan into the fire.....
( ever notice that wicca and christianity are the same, nobody can agree about the true nature of wicca and christianity...but all claim to have the correct version )

lol oh the disgust, oh the disgrace.... oh the heathen nature ......of one that is actually doing nothing wrong

the bible ( since the start of the last century ) *condemns * homosexuality *
..lol....I am bisexual.....BI as in 2....bit like BI cycle.....tho you have more chance of riding a bike, than riding me.....

the bible *condemns * sleeping with another man....lol.... I sleep with nobody.....( and no it has nothing to do with the fact I snore either lol )

the bible *condemns * witchcraft....lol.... bad jelly the witch I am not.......

I am a wiccan person.... that means simply that I love nature.... I enjoy nature.... and I see nature as a aspect of humanity, in the same way that humans are a part of nature

the 5 pointed star ring on my finger and the necklace I wear.... do have a profound meaning for me.....each point represents a aspect of nature and human nature

ring........earth, wind, water, fire, spirit
necklace, love, understanding, wisdom, knowledge, power

do I worship other gods ????? no...lol....I honor the * patron gods and goddesses *
in english.....I do not dance naked or wear a cloak and use a alter and athema.....or honor the soltice and equinox thru some ceremony

in all honesty.... the closest I get to that, is watering the garden, mowing the lawns and doing the weeding.....
to me faith is not about appearance... its about being yourself..... and I am stuffed if I am gonna run around naked on the solstice, calling out 200 names of gods and goddesses while my garden dies cos I forgot to water the damm thing

for me wicca is about respect, for myself and others... and all that is around me.... but not trying to change the world around me or bringing world peace and harmony.....its not about spells, charms, crystals and rituals..... its about being honest.....and being honest to me, means admitting that I am bisexual, and that being wiccan has nothing to be with my sexuality.......and being celibate has nothing to do with being wiccan....lol.....

[DiamondDog]

Pagan/Wiccan magic is a bunch of BS, fakery, and doesn't work.

I found this VERY funny personal ad though!

http://fortcollins.craigslist.org/rnr/496471065.html

god's a playa
Reply to:
Date: 2007-12-02, 1:51PM MST


Just like many gods before him, (Zues, Ra, Krishna, to name a few), Jehovah got down with a virgin (I'm sure he was nice about it, though). If I wuz God, I'd only do virgins also :)
I think Zues had the best way of doing it, though, by coming down as an irresitable animal to bone various mortal hotties. The sexiest bull you've ever seen? come on...

I wonder, do you think Mary was a babe? The hottest one around at the time, I would hope (for God's sake)

[buck-rogers]

In the past my parents had taken me to Church but I no longer go. Instead I practice a much more personal form of worship. I read many different religious texts but ultimatley I decide wich teachings I think are important to follow. Most religions teach to help one another and do no harm and I try to follow these philosophies in my daily life. I also keep an open channel to God through prayer and meditation.

[citystyleguy]

a philosophoical agnostic!

[Bisexualnewbie]

Hi there,
I think the best thing I ever heard on the subject of religion is this:
God is just an imaginary friend for adults.
Not a firm believer in any religion to speak of, most wars, persecution and conflict has been the work of religion.

[rocky]

Agnostic. I think it would be a more peaceful world, if people put more energy into making this existence happier; for everyone, rather than fretting and fighting over the next one.

[darkeyes]

Hi there,
I think the best thing I ever heard on the subject of religion is this:
God is just an imaginary friend for adults.
Not a firm believer in any religion to speak of, most wars, persecution and conflict has been the work of religion.

Not quite..most wars hav been the work of greedy powerfuul an selfish men who use religion as an excuse 2 becum greedier more powerful an more selfish... wy mankind invented it in 1st place...

[Skater Boy]

So Fran... when is Louise's Baptism planned for? :bigrin:

Seriously tho... I always wondered... when two chicks have a baby, whose surname does it take?

[laloo3]

Harvey Cox, a theologian at Harvard once defined a faith as a cult that got successful. From that vantage point I belong to the Christian sub-cult of Paganism. There is some interesting correspondence between Saint Paul and Seneca on how much they had in common.
Paganism, by the way, is properly the name for the old Stoic faith of Greece and Rome. Literally the word means farmer, since it was the farmers and provincials who wanted to keep Pan and Venus alongside the Christian additions.
Wiccanism seems to be a forest religion of Northern Europe, while Paganism is a field religion of the South.

[TaylorMade]

So Fran... when is Louise's Baptism planned for? :bigrin:

Seriously tho... I always wondered... when two chicks have a baby, whose surname does it take?

In many cases, I've seen the child take both names...but if that's not feasable, sometimes the birth mothers. But I think every couple does it different.

*Taylor*

[hillwalker54]

The Dali lllama was once asked this very question at a talk. His response, which has been well quoted since that talk was: "Kindness is my Religion." It's the way i feel. Were i to assign a label to myself, Buddhist.

[darkeyes]

In many cases, I've seen the child take both names...but if that's not feasable, sometimes the birth mothers. But I think every couple does it different.

*Taylor*
We discussed this at long length, jus as we did we we wer engaged..dubble barrelin not my thing tho but think Kate wudda liked a lot... but she as er dad's name.. Im an Kate still married afta all.. we shit on im enuff Skater... an e plays a part in er life 2.. we not absolute bitches...she wos jus gonna hav Kate's surname but at las min she jus cudn do it 2 the guy...

Options we did discuss wos given er the gaelic NicCatriona or NicKatherine(daugther of Katherine) or the scandinavian Katerindota (Katherine's daughter)... bit posey that las 1, an we not teuchters so the Nic wos out..an wiv kids up ere bein wot they r...as wiv dubble barrelin poor Lou wud hav rite hard time as she grows up wiv ne of them for a handle...

An ther will b a namin bash..name parents already pikked will happen in spring...lotsa fun, jollities an booze..o yea..sum nosh 2... no Holy Jo's presidin but a yummie Jo as 1 of er name mummies...

[FalconAngel]

One must take anything that theologians say about Pagan/Wiccan beliefs and practices with a grain of salt.
One, because theologians tend to come from Christian backgrounds and; Two, because that background tends to cloud their statements about non-Judeo-Christian-Islamic beliefs.
They will tell you that they are not so different from them to get you in the church. It worked for Constantine, who moved the date of Christmas to Dec 25 to help make converts of Pagans (who celebrate the winter solstice, also known as Yule, right around Dec 21; but this is only one example). Prior to that, it was celebrated in either Sept, Oct, or Nov, depending on where you were.

Christians/Jews/Muslims all believe in only one God, who is universally male while Pagans and Wiccans believe in many Gods and Goddesses.
Christians worship only that one god, while Pagans/Wiccans worship a God AND a Goddess both equally.
Christian beliefs tend to be very ethnocentric (man above all else in nature) while Pagan/Christian beliefs are completely within the natural order (man as part of nature).

Pagan/Wiccan beliefs are in no way a "sub-cult" of Christianity. They have been around since before the times of the Phaerohs and will be around long after the "born-again" Christians have did out.

What we now call "Nature religions", such as Druidic, Pagan and Wiccan beliefs are all evolved forms of the first religions, where Shaman would perform rituals to help bring rain or mix herbs to cure a malady. These things have not significantly changed.

Pagans have never burned people at the stake to "save their souls". It would violate the Witches Rede, which states "Harm none, do as you will.".
That one statement is far more encompassing than the 10 commandments. The Witches Rede is also why we do not try to convert others.
If you are not seeking us, then we don't want you.

While, historically, Christians have tried everything imaginable to build a larger Christian empire, including preying on themselves, the only other religion to make anything close to that effort is Islam. And even they haven't gone to the extremes that Christianity has in the past.

Both Paganism and Wicca are nearly identical belief systems which are nature based, just like the old religions of the Native American peoples. Christianity has nothing to do with them and is nothing like them.

Unlike the Early days of Christianity (which is, in fact, a cult, since Jesus was Jewish), the only similarities to what we call Pagan/Wiccan beliefs, was the tolerant aspects of it and the fact that congregations were very small. That similarity no longer exists, and hasn't existed for over 1600 years.
A proper pagan/Wiccan coven is usually comprised of 13 people total, in most traditional western paths. Those numbers can vary from time to time, and will tend to vary more with eclectic groups and are definitely different with solitary practitioners and hereditary witches (hereditary Witches tend to practice in solitary or family groups).

If one wants to know about Pagan/Wiccan beliefs, then don't ask a theologian.
An archeologist knows more about Pagan beliefs than theologians do.
Ask a priest or priestess of a coven.
Ask a Pagan/Wiccan who has been in the craft for a few years.
Ask someone who knows about it, because they practice it. I promise that most of them will not try to convert you. But they will try to clear up the fog about it.

[TaylorMade]

The Dali lllama was once asked this very question at a talk. His response, which has been well quoted since that talk was: "Kindness is my Religion." It's the way i feel. Were i to assign a label to myself, Buddhist.

So, that's where that came from. . .I probably would be Buddhist or Asatru if I weren't Christian, but Christ got to me first. :p

*Taylor*

[AmeMahoney]

If I have to label myself, I will say Pagan. I attend a Unitarian Universalist church when I go to church. I'm actually looking forward to joining the church where we're moving in a couple of months - and we're planning a church wedding there. :)

I sometimes consider myself a Recovering Christian - I think I'm on step 3 or so. Grew up Southern Baptist - I've been extremely Anti-Christian (and Anti-any religion, really) for the past couple of years, but it's getting better. I actually spent Thanksgiving with some Christians in Alabama - though I still cringed when they thanked Jesus for the food - I didn't see his ass in the kitchen for the six hours we were cooking!

[frenchvikki]

I was raised by parents who are both devout Christians and regular church goers. I went to church every sunday and to sunday school and believed in the goodness of Jesus Christ and the omnipotence of God until I was about 17 or 18. My parents had also encouraged me to think for myself and when doubts began to raise themselves in my head this caused me great personal troubles. By the time I was about 27 I had slowly evolved to where I am today having used logic and knowledge of the religion of my youth to finally come to the conclusion that there is no God. I was raised with scripture and as I delved deeper and deeper into that scripture, it became so discredited that it was impossible to accept the beliefs which had sustained me in my childhood and youth. Finally when I did accept my athiesm, this left such a gap in my life, it has never been possible to fill that gap adequately. It is a gap filled by sadness and disillusion that faith in God and Jesus Christ no longer exists for me, but in a way it is such a relief to know that finally I was able to live my life without bowing to the demands of an often intolerant religious community.

[shameless agitator]

Since this thread seems to have gotten into the merit (or lack thereof) of belief in god, let me share the thought process that led me to renounce all such belief & become an atheist. We'll leave aside for now the fact that every religion claims to be the one true faith. What really did it for me is the concept of an omniscient, omnipotent, omnibenevolent god. It's impossible to reconcile this with the amount of misery and suffering in the world. We'll assume omniscience since a stupid god is ludicrous. Assuming this deity is aware of all the suffering here on planet earth, but doesn't stop it, we have 2 options. First would be that he/she/it chooses to let it happen, which is not only uncaring, but cruel. The second option is that this deity does care about us and is heartbroken to see all the anguish down here, but is powerless to do anything about it. Neither of these sounds like anything worthy of worship to me. Back when I wanted to believe, I asked a lot of different theologians to help me with this one. The only explanation anyone ever offered me was free will. It strikes me that allowing things like the holocaust, the slaughter in Cambodia and many many other atrocities simply because a few people wanted to do them is akin to letting your toddler play with the kitchen knives because it's his/her choice to do so. This takes us right back to uncaring and cruel.

Side note. When I make sweeping generalizations about all religions, Buddhism is to me, almost always an exception. Although it's classified as a religion, I view it more as a philosophy. Buddhists don't worship any deity since the buddha is considered nothing more than a teacher who achieved something that we all can and will do. Buddhists also have no compulsion to believe. There is no punishment for not subscribing to their philosophy as in other religions where non-believers are damned for eternity.

[brunette]

i was raised a christian, and like many, i no longer believe in god for a number of reasons. one of the primary ones is the reason i'm on this forum. if i act on my attraction to a woman, then there's no way that i'm gonna make it into heaven. that was the first step toward my agnosticism and then eventual atheism.

i do, however, ascribe to a tenet of the hindu faith called "ahimsa" which is translated non-violence. basically, whatever you do should cause no harm or as little harm to others, including animals and ultimately the earth.

other than that, life should be an orgy!! haha. just kidding. unless you're interested....

[gfofbiguy]

I guess I would classify myself as Christian. I was raised Methodist. I was also raised to treat everyone as I would like to be treated, not to be judgmental about other people's race, religion, orientation (as I got older of course), etc. As I have gotten older, I don't attend church so much anymore, as I don't like having religion shoved down my throat (more of the fundamentalist-types) or being continuously asked to give more and more and more and more money (my former church back home). When I do attend, I do what they teach in Al-Anon (as well as in AA I'm told): "Take what you want and leave the rest". I do believe in God or a Higher Power or whatever you would like to call it, but like I said, I will take what I want from the lessons and leave the rest, and I also like to mull over everything and make my own decision about it without people telling me I'm right or wrong, correct or incorrect about what I believe or don't believe.

[masterdsygn]

masterd-(for those who know the difference)

the short answer.:: I have a synergy of pagan, christian, humanist theology/belief.

the long and partial answer.:: Okay after reading that thread from beginning to end I feel there was a lot covered that I hopefully will not repeat, with a few obvious exceptions.

phase 1 - I not only was raised Christian, my parents were missionaries and church starters. So I have lived that lifestyle, and like the lifestyle Jesus led it is all about 1 thing if you are liveing with sincerity and that is self-sacrifice and for doing what is best for all parties not just you {As the predominant thought of the day in the 'organized' american and some european churches is}. Thats the first thing that Christianity and the myriad of organized religions have wrong with them. They are all about themselves (while confrming those around them to their particular modus operadi) and not about what we know here at bi.com - community is what establishes true quality of life by sacrificing and living to something higher than your own personal illusory goals and lifestyle. By helping and building, and maintaining true synergy in the community by living for it - not just off it!

phase 2 - for the last 8 years I have been a (primarily) solitary, and non-solitary occult practitioner and student, as well as a teacher at times.
My bookselves are lined with everything I could devour. I always carry a paradigm of objectivity (there have been exceptions - not everyone is perfect) I do not judge, even though i was raised to, I do not hate (i am not racist, sexist, etc...to each his/her/their own.) The only thing I take issue with is religion, all religion.
Yes I profess to be a Christ-follower, yes I believe in God(Jah,Elohim, Yah whatever.) . I have read 3/4 of the Bible at this moment since July (The Christian *cringe* (ok I dont like that term because of the rampant hypocrisy running amok within Christianity, and to those who here the term they have been either self programmed or propigated towards a negative connotation and underelieing repulsive/combative pose) thing is a rather recent development)

I am often asked if I think God is male or female, they are surprised by answer....I tell them - neither and both. God (which is only an unsatisfactory title) transcends the sexes. Take this verse for instance.

Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

he just told you his 'image' is multifaceted he/she/it etc..
I believe there is far to much scientific evidence that suggests intelligent design - such as inter-dependant relationships in the animal/botany kingdoms.
the peculiar arrangement of the placement of earth and everything around it (if the earth were not exactly where it is. the planet could not sustain life)

the idea of a natural synergy in the fundamental needs through the employment of these endowments is the essence of being a successful, and happy human.

on the human side -
the 4 fundamental human needs are

physical needs: need to live (food clothing shelter etc...)
social needs: quality long-term relationships are built on principles and nothing else
mental needs: development and growth of the mind
spiritual needs: God/Spirituality

the 4 endowments to fulfill these needs

self-awareness: capacity to examine
conscience: connects us with the wisdom of the ages and the wisdom of the heart
Independent will: the capacity to act, and to empower us to transcend our paradigms
Creative imagination: power to envision a future or unreal state, to create something in our mind

these are God giving as are our human rights.
Visualize the four needs as overlapping circles, but not completely overlapping. The space left in between all four is the place inbetween the stimuli and the response, hence the choice, and all human needs come from this synergy of these four 'circles' as.... did you notice that Spirituality/God is only 1/4th of the equation?

Yes belief is important, but left unbalanced with the rest of being human creates very empty, hurt, angry, self-addicted, mean, pushy, self-righteous, selfish, and undisciplined people....and the list goes on.

stage 3 - I Believe in the teachings of Christ. I believe in God, and in Jesus as a representative for God. To get the message out. Love God, love your neighbor, and love yourself. Nowhere does the Bible or God condone all the shit that has been carried out in their name. It teaches God is Love, God is benevolence and so is man. To express that, is to be a creature. 'created being'. That's it for now.

I could say more, but i think that is a lot of food for thought for now. sorry somewhere in th midst of this i lost the structure of the document....sorry if it is a little confusing.

[masterdsygn]

as i stated in my profile religion and sexuality dont define what we are, they enhance who we are!

[Atreus68]

I'm Christian.

[FalconAngel]

Well, as far as merit, it isn't the religion that does or does not have merit as much as the people who participate in it.

To us Pagans, all paths are valid, just not universally valid. For example; just because we are Pagan does not mean that it is the right path for all of you. Even amongst Pagans, there are different paths. This is where we tend to differ from those of the right wing, or "born again" Christian faith.
We don't go recruiting converts. Not to say that Christians are bad......just some of them, like in any other religion.

So it really isn't about which religion is valid and which one isn't. All are valid and equal.

What makes any particular religion less valid, in the eyes of others, is the effort of it's members to force their beliefs on others.

[TaylorMade]

Well, as far as merit, it isn't the religion that does or does not have merit as much as the people who participate in it.

To us Pagans, all paths are valid, just not universally valid. For example; just because we are Pagan does not mean that it is the right path for all of you. Even amongst Pagans, there are different paths. This is where we tend to differ from those of the right wing, or "born again" Christian faith.
We don't go recruiting converts. Not to say that Christians are bad......just some of them, like in any other religion.

So it really isn't about which religion is valid and which one isn't. All are valid and equal.

What makes any particular religion less valid, in the eyes of others, is the effort of it's members to force their beliefs on others.

I know you're trying to speak for Pagans here, but I will say that there are VERY zealous pagans out there, as well as zealous atheists and zealots of other faiths. I've run into them and they can be every bit of obnoxious and judgmental as the last. I know it's easy to pick on Christianity in this forum, but keep in mind that EVERY faith has its zealots. And to point out others w/o acknowledging your own is unfair.

*Taylor*

[bigregory]

Religion * God * What the heck are you people thinking?
Granted some of the Pagen rituals are pretty kinky, but to believe in a god is just silly in this day and age ,but I do I hope there is one so I can go to heaven or better yet Valhalla.
Religious books/teachings are all good be them christian,muslem,pagen,budhism or any other thing that teaches how to live with your fellow man.They are a guidance written by man not by a god.
I like to be my own GOD
Damm im going to Hell for this.:devil:

[TaylorMade]

You know, since so many people have elaborated on their own faiths, it's about time I elaborated on mine a little.

I'm Christian...I grew up in a So. Baptist Church with what I Thought I Knew and what I Was Not Sure About. I was very vocal about the former, and reticent about the latter.

When I was 16 is when the two collided. . . I was sure I was bisexual, but I was sure that was wrong. I kept it to myself and turned it over like a stone. . .I love God, but I love women too. Sometimes there was shame, sometimes there was reluctance, but sometimes, when deep in prayer, I lost the world around me and started speaking to God. . .not in overly formal tones, but in the way that they tell you in theory to pray, but you never hear anyone actually pray; the kind with frustration doubt, anger and cursing. Lots of cursin. I couldn't figure out what God wanted, I stopped going to church and walked away from God. I couldn't call myself an atheist, because life w/o him seemed too empty and cold. . .agnostic seemed too wishy washy. So I questioned for a while. . .but the entire time, there was a tug telling me. . .you won't get rid of me THAT easy.

So, I walked back into church. I went through the motions, shutting away the frustration and the doubt. It still seemed empty. While praying, I just asked. . .why does this seem so ...hollow?"

"Cause you're doing it for THEM and not for Me."

To me... that's where it all changed. It is important to save souls, but. . .most importantly, I think Christians need to live for Christ, not for the approval of their friends or their church. I call myself a Christian not because of the church I go to, but because that is who I am...someone in a tumultuous, fulfilling, curiosity-filled relationship with God. I feel like I've gone through massive spiritual growth as I've thought about how God sees not just me, not just other people who simply aren't straight, but the rest of humanity. . .as a result. . .I try to be moved with the love He has, yet try to understand the justice with which He rules... but I know I'm not going to get it immediately.

And I don't expect anyone else to get it much because I'm just getting over a fever and the runs, and I'm not sure it makes sense. :tongue:

And besides, being Christian among LBGT is like being the single guy at the swingers club. . .yeah, you can come in, but you stay over------> THERE. Shut up, look pretty and we MIGHT let you come back again.

*Taylor*

[coyotedude]

Neither Christian nor pagan nor atheist. But I am a heathen and proud of it!

I have no problem with folks of any other religion or spiritual practice. Nor do I have problems with agnostics or atheists. I do, however, expect all people - whether Christians or atheists or anyone else - to treat me and my beliefs with the same respect as I accord to them and theirs.

As you can see from this thread, some atheists - like some religious folks - have a real problem with respect, tolerance, and acceptance. Not because they are atheists, of course, but because they are human beings - and some human beings are just assholes, regardless of religious conviction (or lack thereof).

Peace

[darkeyes]

Neither Christian nor pagan nor atheist. But I am a heathen and proud of it!

I have no problem with folks of any other religion or spiritual practice. Nor do I have problems with agnostics or atheists. I do, however, expect all people - whether Christians or atheists or anyone else - to treat me and my beliefs with the same respect as I accord to them and theirs.

As you can see from this thread, some atheists - like some religious folks - have a real problem with respect, tolerance, and acceptance. Not because they are atheists, of course, but because they are human beings - and some human beings are just assholes, regardless of religious conviction (or lack thereof).

Peace
Ya exemptin heathens from havin ne intolerant arseholes in its numba then Dude???

[ambi53mm]

Seeing how most of my Sunday mornings are spent here...as well as every other day of the week...bisexual.com must be my place of worship and fellowship...so that would make me a ...bisexual???...Praise Drew and Co. :)

Ambi:)

[the mage]

Just to throw a twist in the works I submit the following assertion....
The 15% of North America that still attends church are 1 matter,,

The 85% that do not attend church do in fact..
....... Worship At The Mall.

"Going Shopping" is a quasi religious activity, totally tied in to the concepts of self worth and attainment of pleasure and the concept of the communal ritualized activity....the Bling is god.

[masterdsygn]

Well spoken mage!

However isn't most of all this just part of our social/cultural scripting? Or are we truly capable of transcending that scripting?
Are we just mindless slaves in-bondaged to a system that we cant stop feeding off of and cant shut down due to the quality of life changes that that school of thought would bring about? Who really wants to be 100% self sufficient-in all areas of life. Not I, like so many other people I like my car, my video games and movies, my sex, and whatnot. They like 'soma' pacify the masses. We bitch so much about our scripting yet we do nothing to change it, why? because we are pacified. I have made peace with this and it ticks me off sometimes, but other times (most of the time) it makes me a better person.....some others should try it. They wouldn't be so uptight.

[masterdsygn]

My other thought is that pagan, christian, heathen, humanist, aethist, agnostic, budhist, toaist and so many - like the fundamental human needs that i discussed last night are synergistic. In that the are not set against each other, they compliment one another when balanced and empowered.

[PolyLoveTriad]

My husband and I are pagan what are you???
Such a simple and honest question. Christan. I normally dont talk about it. I dont think it matters. I dont hold anyones choices against them if I dont agree with them or dont have their beliefes.

I look at people like this... If youre nice, Im going to like you and be nice. If youre an ass, Im going to be nice.

And if your post is more than 5,000 words long, you need to get a life :o)

[The Barefoot Contess]

Ok, I have a question here, and I apologize if people get offended. I just want to clarify something, because I am confused: if I am atheist and I think there is no god, and a friend of mine believes there is a god, isn't that friend, from my perspective, not universally, wrong? The same applies to all the different beliefs: if I believe something is one way, and you think it is another way, you might be right, but not to me. What I am trying to say here is that one thing is respecting people, which I do regardless of whether or not I share their religious beliefs (as long as they don't interfere in my life or in that of a secular civil society), an another is saying that you don't think you are right and others wrong. It is not a question of arrogance, but of logic, in my opinion: if I believe in god and you don't, the sentence, "I think I am right, but I don't think you are wrong" does not make any sense to me. As long as I don't hurt you because of your beliefs, and as long as I accept that you might use the same logic towards me, I think it is my right to say "I think you are wrong".

[Long Duck Dong]

believe somebody is wrong and leave it at that..... tell them they are wrong and you risk a friendship

there is a difference between looking at the sky and disagreeing about the clouds in the sky, and telling anybody that they are wrong cos of what YOU believe, is right based on what you choose to believe

the way that some christians use christianity as a rule of thumb to attack others, is a prime example
they believe in their god and their bible... and feel that others should not have a difference of option, but should stand still and accept that the christian is 100&#37; correct

in fact, the christians I respect, are the ones that believe that they are right and I am wrong, but never tell me that.... its a unspoken kind of respect.... and I return that respect, by respect their beliefs and not challenging their faith

[coyotedude]

Ya exemptin heathens from havin ne intolerant arseholes in its numba then Dude???

No, last I checked, the heathens have 'em, too. But I can check again if you like!

Peace

[coyotedude]

Ok, I have a question here, and I apologize if people get offended. I just want to clarify something, because I am confused: if I am atheist and I think there is no god, and a friend of mine believes there is a god, isn't that friend, from my perspective, not universally, wrong? The same applies to all the different beliefs: if I believe something is one way, and you think it is another way, you might be right, but not to me. What I am trying to say here is that one thing is respecting people, which I do regardless of whether or not I share their religious beliefs (as long as they don't interfere in my life or in that of a secular civil society), an another is saying that you don't think you are right and others wrong. It is not a question of arrogance, but of logic, in my opinion: if I believe in god and you don't, the sentence, "I think I am right, but I don't think you are wrong" does not make any sense to me. As long as I don't hurt you because of your beliefs, and as long as I accept that you might use the same logic towards me, I think it is my right to say "I think you are wrong".

It is absolutely your right - and it is not necessarily arrogance - to say (for example) that you think I am wrong about issue "X". As it is my right to say you are wrong.

And indeed, it might not be a matter of perspective but an absolute matter of fact that someone is wrong. Just because I believe the moon is made of green cheese or two and two make five doesn't necessarily make me right.

Respecting a person and agreeing with that person are not the same thing at all. Two people can disagree passionately about something and still respect each other's views - and respect each other as fellow, flawed human beings.

What I object to - and have objected to in the past - is when impassioned debate devolves into subjective judgment calls that have little if any basis in fact or objective truth. I find this particularly ironic when coming from someone who is atheist, because at the heart of the atheist argument is the innate superiority of objective, verifiable evidence over faith and revelation. Yet all too often, the arguments I have seen offered by some (but by no means all) people who are atheists are no more cogent, logical, or verifiable than those from the people of faith that they roundly condemn. If you are going to argue for the superiority of logic, reason, and the scientific paradigm, then I expect you to apply such to your arguments and steer away from rhetoric and logically fallacious statements! That's not too much to ask, is it?

The bottom line is that we are all human beings. Some of us are genuinely decent people who have honest disagreements with one another. Others of us are assholes - not because we're atheists or Christians or heathens or whatever, but just because we wanna be assholes.

And I'm rambling, so I better stop now while I can!

Peace

[rissababynta]

my husband and i are 100% pagan!

[niftyshellshock]

Unorthodox Catholic, Practicing

/Not fond of extremism of any kind

[The Barefoot Contess]

What I object to - and have objected to in the past - is when impassioned debate devolves into subjective judgment calls that have little if any basis in fact or objective truth. I find this particularly ironic when coming from someone who is atheist, because at the heart of the atheist argument is the innate superiority of objective, verifiable evidence over faith and revelation. Yet all too often, the arguments I have seen offered by some (but by no means all) people who are atheists are no more cogent, logical, or verifiable than those from the people of faith that they roundly condemn. If you are going to argue for the superiority of logic, reason, and the scientific paradigm, then I expect you to apply such to your arguments and steer away from rhetoric and logically fallacious statements! That's not too much to ask, is it?



No, it isn't.

[jamieknyc]

Neither of the above. I'm Jewish :)

[transcendMental]

in fact, the christians I respect, are the ones that believe that they are right and I am wrong, but never tell me that.... its a unspoken kind of respect.... and I return that respect, by respect their beliefs and not challenging their faith

I'm not sure I see how not challenging a person's faith relates to respecting their beliefs. Faith isn't faith unless it can withstand genuine challenges.

I believe that if you really respect the person and their beliefs, you will challenge the beliefs that you disagree with, but you will do it respectfully, and with an open mind.

Simply telling a person their beliefs are wrong or immoral or demeaning to women or to others, etc. is not being respectful. Probing the inconsistencies in their beliefs or inconsistencies between their religious texts and their religious dogma, on the other hand, helps both of you to clarify your beliefs. That kind of discussion should reinforce peoples' faith, and willingness to engage in that kind of discussion is a sign of healthy faith and respect for one another.

tm

[goldenfinger]

Born and raised athirst, but I thank God for FORBIDDEN FRUIT, where would we be without it. It tastes sooooooo much better.Yam Yam.:bigrin:

[shameless agitator]

believe somebody is wrong and leave it at that..... tell them they are wrong and you risk a friendship

there is a difference between looking at the sky and disagreeing about the clouds in the sky, and telling anybody that they are wrong cos of what YOU believe, is right based on what you choose to believe

the way that some christians use christianity as a rule of thumb to attack others, is a prime example
they believe in their god and their bible... and feel that others should not have a difference of option, but should stand still and accept that the christian is 100% correct

in fact, the christians I respect, are the ones that believe that they are right and I am wrong, but never tell me that.... its a unspoken kind of respect.... and I return that respect, by respect their beliefs and not challenging their faithI agree wholeheartedly. I'd also like to apologize if I offended anyone with my earlier comments.

[Stargazer1417]

I think you're going to find that the vast majority of people in the bisexual or gay communities are athiest, agnostic, pagan, etc. I came from a very religous family, and I was always taught that being anything but straight was a sin, for which I would burn in hell. Suffice it to say I had some serious issues coming to terms with my attraction to women. I know not all religions are the same, but at least from the views presented to me as a child, I find it difficult to believe that Christianity and bisexuality can co-exist.

Certainly there are exceptions to every rule, and I know there are people out there who disagree with me. But it was my experience that these are two very conflicting concepts... I know what I felt as far as my attraction to the same sex, in direct opposition to what I was taught to believe. I did not, on the other hand, ever have first hand knowledge of God, but was simply taught to rely on faith. I don't know about you, but for me it is easier to go with something I experience first hand, versus some invisible concept that I was taught to believe "or else."

I hope that made sense. I knew what I meant, anyway. :)

[HighEnergy]

I'm a steadfast Christian and never seemed to walk away. I've always felt Christ in my life. But I'm one of those oddball ones that actually takes that accepting folks and loving all of them to heart as I believe Christ taught us. I believe that God extends his Grace to us all, believers or not, good/bad, ALL. Thus I do believe in infant baptism. (Or as Mark Twain said, "Believe in it, I've seen it!"

I worked in our church for a couple of years as outreach coordinator, creating programs for feeding folks, housing the homeless, teaching children to read, running a food pantry with an education component for cooking cheaply, managing your money, won a $10k grant to put in laundry and shower facilities for the homeless. It was a wonderful job. That being said, I walked into my priest's office one day, slammed the door and screamed that I was going to lose my religion working there dealing with the right wing conservative folks. He answered, "I love God. It's His followers I can't stand some days." :tongue:

[rocky]

I just wanted to add that I find the openmindedness (is that a word ?) of
the people on this site refreshing. I should not be suprised, considering that the site itself is out of the mainstream.

[IanBorthwick]

I am a Thaumaturgist, so Christians call me a pagan and Wiccans call me a Christian...sigh.

[FalconAngel]

I am a Thaumaturgist, so Christians call me a pagan and Wiccans call me a Christian...sigh.

That's kind of odd, since thaumaturgy could be part of both or either, considering it's history.

As a Pagan, we would automatically assume that it was more Pagan than Christian. But, having looked it up, it seems fit somewhere in between them.

Go figure.

[Bluebiyou]

Ah! May God bless and keep ye all!
I was born and raised atheist by my cunt of a mother.
Then, after opening my heart and praying twice, two miracles appeared.
And now I'm Catholic. But joining the Catholic church as an adult is a far cry from being raised Catholic. As I noticed adult Catholics raised as Catholics are but a hairs breadth from Jews or atheism... except being an adult Catholic is a great reason to get together with other Catholics of all religions and share some love and a fifth!
There's a great deal in the Catholic church that has nothing to do with God... Some contrary to God (Spanish Inquisition), however, them motherfuckin' Catholics... mother Theresa... have dug far far into the true meaning of life... more so than other religions (my perspective). That's my attraction.

P.S. Contrary to the popular belief since 1950's playwrights, the WWII Vatican with it's 17th century Dutch guard was so pitifully ill equiped to battle Hitler and Mussolini, yet, the 1940's Catholic church saved some 600,000 Jews. If you're going to ride the Catholic hate/blame wagon and blame the whole Catholic church for several priests molesting a lot of boys then blame the whole Catholic church for all the incredible good it's done. Also blame the Catholic church and John Paul II for Draconian reforms against molestation since 1980s.

[gfofbiguy]

...P.S. Contrary to the popular belief since 1950's playwrights, the WWII Vatican with it's 17th century Dutch guard was so pitifully ill equiped to battle Hitler and Mussolini, yet, the 1940's Catholic church saved some 600,000 Jews. If you're going to ride the Catholic hate/blame wagon and blame the whole Catholic church for several priests molesting a lot of boys then blame the whole Catholic church for all the incredible good it's done. Also blame the Catholic church and John Paul II for Draconian reforms against molestation since 1980s.

Actually, it's a Swiss guard..."The Papal Swiss Guard in the Vatican was founded in 1506 and is the only Swiss Guard that still exists." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_Guard

[Bluebiyou]

Ooop! Sorry!
16th century Swiss Guard!

Pardon my American-knowledge-of-Europe faux pas.

[gfofbiguy]

:bigrin: No problem! I had just seen something on TV recently about them, so was still fresh in my mind....

[Long Duck Dong]

I'm not sure I see how not challenging a person's faith relates to respecting their beliefs. Faith isn't faith unless it can withstand genuine challenges.

I believe that if you really respect the person and their beliefs, you will challenge the beliefs that you disagree with, but you will do it respectfully, and with an open mind.

Simply telling a person their beliefs are wrong or immoral or demeaning to women or to others, etc. is not being respectful. Probing the inconsistencies in their beliefs or inconsistencies between their religious texts and their religious dogma, on the other hand, helps both of you to clarify your beliefs. That kind of discussion should reinforce peoples' faith, and willingness to engage in that kind of discussion is a sign of healthy faith and respect for one another.

tm

depends on the way you look at it

there is a difference between saying * you are wrong, god doesn't exist cos I don't believe in god * and saying * I have a different view of things... I believe what I believe to be correct....but what you believe is different to what I believe *

I will challenge the bible.... but not what a person believes.....for the simple reason that people believe what the bible says......you prove that the bible is incorrect, then that person has the choice of checking out what is said for themselves or ignoring you.....but you are not challenging them.... simply what their belief is built around

when a christian challenges my beliefs, they are challenging me based on what they have read about wicca, in books, websites and watching tv..... so their info for challenging my beliefs, is woefully incorrect....

see the pattern ???? we can challenge the bible, and all the books, websites and tv programs about christianity and wicca.... but that doesn't mean that every christian or wiccan follow those beliefs.....

now when a person challenges somebodies faith, you look at what they believe... and with a christian, they have faith in god...... but what does a wiccan have faith in ?????

[FalconAngel]

...... but what does a wiccan have faith in?????


We have faith in Nature. Mother Earth will survive and regenerate, as long as we don't continue to infect her with the excessive cancers of pollution and overpopulation. That is something that she has already demonstrated.

Paganism is as much a science as a religion. We have measurable effects to what we do when we perform a ritual for a specific reason.
For example; (specific details are not put in to protect our coven and our friend) A while back our coven had a ritual of healing for a friend of ours. We focused all of the energy that we could gather and aimed it at her and the particular area of her body that was in the most need. Within 2 days, her Doctor released her, stating that she had made a "miraculous" recovery. The normal healing time for that particular ailment was anywhere from 1 - 2 weeks. He had never seen a recovery sooner before then.

To clarify, to the Christians that don't understand, We believe in both the God and Goddess. Anything less is unnatural to us.

Also, there is another common misunderstanding.
Just as all Catholics are Christian, but not all Christians are Catholic; So too, with Pagan beliefs. All Wiccans are Pagan, but not all Pagans are Wiccan.
Just as in Christianity, there are different paths. We have solitary practicioners, Gardenarians, Alexandrians, Ancestral, Helenic, Druidic, Shamanistic, Eclectic......the list can go on and on.

Unlike many, but not all, Christians, we do not go out trying to convert others to our belief system. We only accept those who actively seek us out.

And whether the more extremist "born-again" Christians want to admit it or not, Paganism is the fastest growing religion in the nation (US), possibly the world. Even the military is actively seeking Pagan trained chaplains to accommodate the growing influx of Pagans and self-identified Pagans coming out that are already within it's ranks.

[coyotedude]

The discussion of pagan way in general (and Wiccan specifically) are very interesting to me, FalconAngel and others. Thanks for sharing!

I know precious little about pagan beliefs, practices, traditions.... so the information is very much appreciated. I myself follow an "earth-based" spiritual path, so to speak, but our traditions and practices are by no means the same as pagan!

Peace

[mspguy]

I dont see how anyone couldn't believe in a higher being. Acknowledging Jesus and the love of God does does not seperate man from his humanity.

I am a Christian in the spiritual sense, less the religious sense.

[goldenfinger]

I get offended when people bless me.Should I tell them that.If they have right to bless me without my concent, do I have right to tell them, "May the devil be with you". Some would argue that is freedom of speech.:eek:

[shameless agitator]

I get offended when people bless me.Should I tell them that.If they have right to bless me without my concent, do I have right to tell them, "May the devil be with you". Some would argue that is freedom of speech.:eek:And freedom of religion. I don't get offended by shit like that though, since I understand the intent. They're trying to be nice. It's when people start trying to force me to live according to their religious beliefs that I get pissy.

[darkeyes]

I get offended when people bless me.Should I tell them that.If they have right to bless me without my concent, do I have right to tell them, "May the devil be with you". Some would argue that is freedom of speech.:eek:

If me gavya ya blessins babe..ya wud hav a rite 2 feel aggrieved... but a bit harsh if all sum 1 tryin 2 do is 2 wishya well... an wud aggree wivya it wud b freedom off speech re the devil..but it wud also show a lil contempt for the sensitivities of the wellwishers... hav lotsa the devil in me..but not so much as me wishes the ole horned 1 wud sit on ther shoulder an give em a hard time an do em sum harm!:tong:

[FalconAngel]

The discussion of pagan way in general (and Wiccan specifically) are very interesting to me, FalconAngel and others. Thanks for sharing!

I know precious little about pagan beliefs, practices, traditions.... so the information is very much appreciated. I myself follow an "earth-based" spiritual path, so to speak, but our traditions and practices are by no means the same as pagan!

Peace

Always happy to teach what we can. There's so much disinformation out there as well as over a thousand years of ingrained doctrine about non-Judeo-Christian beliefs (particularly about Paganism) that we felt that, if the subject comes up, then it is almost a duty (joyfully performed) to educate people on the facts.

Sometimes, what we let people know is seen as Christian-bashing. That is about as far from the truth as you can get. We only present facts as they have been recorded in history.
There are bad people and good in every religion and no one belief is any better than any other. It is only better for those that follow the path that they choose, of their own volition.

Particularly in these times, when fundamentalist extremism has been growing well out of proportion to the sectors of the population that are devout believers.
There needs to be information out there which is truthful so that people can judge for themselves. It is always better to let people make their judgments based on facts, rather than fantasy.

[*pan*]

happy to say Pagan, no baggage or guilt trips here, no fret about sin or hell, these are man made concepts to make people stay in line through guilt, a way to control people when no one is watching lol. sex is for pleasure, enjoyed and remembered with fondness, male or female makes no difference is all good lol. i just love pleasing people and makin them feel good. and the gods favor that.

[DiamondDog]

Paganism is as much a science as a religion. We have measurable effects to what we do when we perform a ritual for a specific reason.
For example; (specific details are not put in to protect our coven and our friend) A while back our coven had a ritual of healing for a friend of ours. We focused all of the energy that we could gather and aimed it at her and the particular area of her body that was in the most need. Within 2 days, her Doctor released her, stating that she had made a "miraculous" recovery. The normal healing time for that particular ailment was anywhere from 1 - 2 weeks. He had never seen a recovery sooner before then.

How's that actually science or about science at all?

[DiamondDog]

...... but what does a wiccan have faith in ?????

A religion that's actually very very modern and not that old at all, even if its practitioners believe that it is or think that it is.

[Long Duck Dong]

A religion that's actually very very modern and not that old at all, even if its practitioners believe that it is or think that it is.


Much of modern-day Wicca can be directly traced back to the writings of Charles Leland (1824-1903) who published a book in 1899: Aradia: Gospel of the Witches.

yet when people talk about modern wicca.... they refer to this man as the founder

Gerald Gardner (1884 - 1964), a British civil servant, who has written that he joined an existing Wiccan Coven in 1939, taking the (then) usual vows of secrecy

he persuaded the coven to let him write a book in 1949 about Wicca in the form of a novel, High Magic's Aid. He carefully revealed a few of the Old Religion's beliefs and the historical persecutions that they endured.
and added many rituals, symbols, concepts and elements from ceremonial magick, Freemasonry and other sources to "flesh out" the coven's beliefs and practices, most of which had been long forgotten.

he wrote Witchcraft Today in 1954 in which he described additional details about the faith and wrote The Meaning of Witchcraft which described in detail the history of Wicca in Northern Europe.


hence I practise the OLD wicca.... the stuff that doesn't exist in books, websites etc etc,...... the stuff that is only handed down from generation to generation within the family.... cos of things like the scottish witch hunts of 1661-2 etc etc

thats why I laugh at people that attack wicca as a modern religion......they are using incorrect info.... and a lot of the info states that modern wicca began about 1950......yet....modern wicca is not even wicca... its a bitsa.....( bitsa this and bitsa that )

[redheadhoneycat]

We are both Christian...actually we are Episcopalians.

[brunette]

I dont see how anyone couldn't believe in a higher being. Acknowledging Jesus and the love of God does does not seperate man from his humanity.

I am a Christian in the spiritual sense, less the religious sense.

hahahahahahaha. literally. i laughed out loud when i read this. i'm an atheist, but even when i identified with other religions i would have laughed.

just because you don't experience something for yourself doesn't make it any less real for someone else. i don't believe in god because i've never had proof that there's a god or gods. some religions have some good ideas about things, but for the most part, they are filled with myths passed down as cautionary tales.

but that doesn't mean that the witches on this board should acknowledge jesus or deny the goddess.

and, as for god = love. well, i won't go into that too in depth, but the judeo-christian-muslim god has started more wars and killed more people than any other single "entity" in recent history.

[coyotedude]

and, as for god = love. well, i won't go into that too in depth, but the judeo-christian-muslim god has started more wars and killed more people than any other single "entity" in recent history.

Not a Jew, Christian, or Muslim, but I have to disagree with you there, brunette.

First, there's a big difference between the Judeo-Christian-Muslim god and his followers. His followers are human beings, and all human beings can be idiots and assholes. I don't fault the Judeo-Christian-Muslim god for the fact that many of his followers don't bother reading their own spiritual texts in full.

Second, much of the misery of the 20th century was not brought on by religious believers. As I recall, Stalin, Hitler, Mao, and Pol Pot (just a few examples) were not Christians, yet they managed to kill millions quite handily, thank you very much.

But I'm not going to use that fact to bash atheists as a whole, any more than I will use the Spanish Inquisition or the bloody wars of the Reformation to bash Christians as a whole.

Interestingly, there's a quote I read recently (don't remember where) that kinda sums up religion within the human experience. Basically it points out that religion can inspire our noblest endeavors and feed our deepest fears and ignorance. And I think that's true.

We shake our head in disgust at Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, or Fred Phelps. But we forget that Martin Luther King, Jr. and Mother Theresa - no matter how imperfect they were as human beings - were nonetheless inspired by their Christian faith to work for people who were rejected as somehow less worthy than society as a whole.

We condemn the fools in the Middle East who peddle hate in the name of Allah. Yet we gloss over the fact that charity is one of the pillars of the Muslim faith - a calling that is taken very seriously by millions of Muslims all over the world.

We refuse to accept the Mormon Church's teachings on homosexuality and other social issues. Yet inspired by their faith, individual Mormon wards and stakes are continually at the forefront of responding to disasters in our communities, at home and abroad.

Religion - like Science or any other human endeavor - has inspired both good and evil throughout the centuries and continues to do so today. The challenge of believers like myself is to maximize the good and minimize the evil. Considering the fact that we are dealing with imperfect human beings, that is no small task. But if we are truly inspired by our faith, we have no other choice than to accept this challenge.

Peace

[elian]

If you had to label me it would be Gnostic. I go to the Unitarian church a little ways from here - primarily because it is the least "organized" (re:dogmatic) of the "organized" religions of any "church" I can find here. I go to "church" for the community - however what I believe isn't in any physical building or political ideology - my spiritual belief is in my heart - arguably where it belongs.

I am fascinated by the interaction of people and technology throughout history so it is intriguing to me to learn what people believe on a personal level with regard to philosophy and spirituality.

I do not fret over the "souls of others" because I believe that within a certain framework we have been given free will. If you think about it some people would say that what humans do .. take ideas and manifest them into "reality" is the stuff of Gods. Although I cannot condone hate crime I figure that for the most part an individual is responsible for their OWN life and if they make the wrong choice they get to see the consequences firsthand..that's a part of what being on the Earth is all about.

I think what defines my spirituality would drive some people crazy because it reads more like a recipie than a stated list of ideals:

I believe in karma/dao/tao and the Buddhist philosophy of suffering - I believe a dualistic God/Goddesss - I believe in ancestor worship (to a degree) - I believe in Spirit Guides - My relationship with "God" got a lot better when I started to consider him a partner rather than a "father to obey". Bast is my patron saint.

I do believe in Satan - it's easier to blame something external for all the things we don't like about being human - even though they ARE a part of us. So therefore, "Satanism" must be the religion of human nature. Like any idea, Satan only has as much power over your life as you give it. My incarnation of "The Devil" happens to be Jack Nicholson from "The Witches of Eastwick" ..and we all know what happens to good old Jack in the end..

I also think that science is cool. When I see a snowflake, and look at it in a microscope and see worlds upon worlds of intricate design and symmetry that impresses me. When I take off from a plane and I see tiny networks of roads, electric, telephone and all of the physical things we have woven in this world to interconnect ourselves as a metaphor for our needs spiritually and mentally it makes me wonder.

When I think of the valence theory of electrons and learn that chemical elements are trying to reach a stable configuration - then I think about all of these networks we've built on every level - and I wonder if it isn't just tiny elements - but the ENTIRE UNIVERSE that is trying to reach a critical mass of consciousness I think that is cool - and ominous..

..and I have to wonder what the big deal is about Creationists not liking science because if you take that part in Genesis literally where it says God took the rib of Adam and made Eve - well - that sure sounds like Genetic Engineering to me. ..and that pillar of salt - sure seems like we had a lot of those in the 1950's around the Nevada area.

Personally I think Creationism and Evolution can coexist - or at least that it serves no meaningful purpose to be so opposed to either idea such that neither one advances. The reason I believe that is while I think science is very valid - I have seen more "strange coincidences" then I care to admit with the way the world works to think that the level of knowledge we currently have about the world is 100% complete and accurate - having all of the technology in the world but no morals to know when to use it is foolish. On the other hand it bothers me that religions would rather not have us ask any questions at all about the origins of our environment.

The more I think about it I think Jesus was a bridge - he studied Eastern Philosophy and became enlightened - and then tried to convert those principles into concepts that Western culture could understand.

OK, I'll stop rambling now - hope I didn't offend anybody - it wasn't my intent.

-E

[Sarasvati]

hav lotsa the devil in me..but not so much as me wishes the ole horned 1 wud sit on ther shoulder an give em a hard time!:tong:

This is such a great line

[Atreus68]

If you had to label me it would be Gnostic.
The more I think about it I think Jesus was a bridge - he studied Eastern Philosophy and became enlightened - and then tried to convert those principles into concepts that Western culture could understand.
-E

Just curious....how do you define Gnostic in this context? And what do you cite as proof that Jesus studied Eastern Philosophy?

[elian]

Just curious....how do you define Gnostic in this context? And what do you cite as proof that Jesus studied Eastern Philosophy?

Humans are naturally inquisitive - I don't want someone to TELL me not to ask questions. I also don't want to accept answers as ultimate truth just because someone in authority says that's the way it is. I want to learn about spirituality directly, through first-hand experience. I do believe that God has dominion over this realm, and that it's a lot easier to live here if you play by his rules. I do not think that he is in ultimate control of every concievable aspect of the "universe". I think while he means well for his "children", he does lie on occassion when he believes it to be in our best interest. I also believe in a feminine energy, and a believe in an ultimate natural affinity for balance between creation and destruction.

The second question is a very good one as well. It has been a long time but I believe it was a combination of things I had read in "The Gnostic Gospels" by Elaine Pagels and Stephen Mitchell's "The Gospel According to Jesus". I had read also that he may have gone to Egypt and studied there as well - whether or not these claims can be substantiated with honest FACTS I'm not sure because I can't exactly recall where I had heard it.

I may have misquoted when I said he studied Eastern Philosophy - I guess I really can't prove that - but the parallels in the ideas between the two are certainly there. Jesus got people to start to think about soulful introspection - about the power a person has that doesn't come from external forces.

There is also another very popular Christian series - "The Purpose Driven Life" - upon careful examination appears to me to take Eastern ideas and frame them in Western/Biblical terms.

Since the goal here is to make happy, whole, healthy productive individuals I have no qualm with any one particular way of people meeting their spiritual needs as long as they are not directly harming others.

The way I resolve the dilemma of knowing which God is "real" is to say that if indeed God is onmipotent then surely the divine must be capable of presenting itself in the most appropriate form at the right time and place to each person.

Again, I'm sure some of what I'm saying may seem quite heretical - I don't mean to offend anyone but if you ask me a question I will speak my mind..as deranged as it may sound..

[elian]

If the more traditional Christian faiths were accepting of LGBT maybe I wouldn't have had to look so hard to find God. I mean if "God made everyone and everything" then God made ME right? They made it pretty obvious that "gay people aren't welcome" .. Indeed for a while there I was jealous because there could be nothing simpler then extending the parent relationship beyond this realm - and growing up in a divorced household the whole "father" thing held a special place in my heart.

But, then again if I didn't question my gender growing up - I don't think I would've had nearly the willingness to consider other ideas that I have right now.

The book I was remembering is definitely "The Gospel According to Jesus" by Stephen Mitchell - it draws so many parallels between Eastern thought and the sayings of Jesus that it makes you wonder.

-E

[Stargazer1417]

I dont see how anyone couldn't believe in a higher being. Acknowledging Jesus and the love of God does does not seperate man from his humanity.

I am a Christian in the spiritual sense, less the religious sense.


Wow... this really irritated me when I read it. I can't quite put into words exactly why, but damn, it did.

I can't even count the number of reasons I don't believe in a higher being. I guess I can't help but feel that you are taking all that and tossing it out the window as obsolete, because you feel differently. Maybe I'm reading it wrong. I don't really care, actually. It just rubbed me the wrong way.

[gfofbiguy]

If the more traditional Christian faiths were accepting of LGBT maybe I wouldn't have had to look so hard to find God. I mean if "God made everyone and everything" then God made ME right? They made it pretty obvious that "gay people aren't welcome" .. Indeed for a while there I was jealous because there could be nothing simpler then extending the parent relationship beyond this realm - and growing up in a divorced household the whole "father" thing held a special place in my heart.

But, then again if I didn't question my gender growing up - I don't think I would've had nearly the willingness to consider other ideas that I have right now.

The book I was remembering is definitely "The Gospel According to Jesus" by Stephen Mitchell - it draws so many parallels between Eastern thought and the sayings of Jesus that it makes you wonder.

-E

That has been one thing that confounds me with some of the Christians....the "God made everyone and everything" (which includes people who are gay, lesbian, bi, straight - at least, it does to me)......why do so many fundamentalist Christians gay-bash (for lack of a better term)? I have never understood that.......I was raised Christian, Methodist. I was raised to treat others as I would like to be treated. No discrimination of race, sex, age, orientation, etc. I just don't get that whole "traditional" or fundamentalist Christian belief that people of other orientations are not welcome.....

[ohbimale]

I am Pagan/Witch, recovering Methodist. I was bisexual before I discovered Witchcraft - some call it Wicca. It is a Pagan religion in that it is nature based. I am also an ordained minister and can perform legal marriages in Ohio as well as any other duties any other minister carries out.

Before someone asks how I can be a Witch and a Minister...Witchcraft, Wicca and Paganism are all legally recognized religions in the USA. I just happen to believe in and honor a God and Goddess.

When I was growing up I never could bring myself to agree with all the Christian teachings about sex, relationships and more than I can go into here. When I discovered Wicca/Witchcraft the beliefs put forth in these religions meshed pretty well with what I already believed, so it was just a natural transition for me.

Blessings All.

:three::male::male:

[elian]

I don't consider myself to be a Christian to be honest, but I do know some Christians that I have a lot of respect for. These are the folks who live the parables in life and those are the people I admire - they are usually quiet - and give support when it counts - without asking or demanding anything.

I hate to pick, but I have known some others that are rather noisy, and give a lot of LIP SERVICE to the philosophy and somehow expect that just by berating me with words that I'm going to instantly see the error of my ways and convert. They can spend thousands, maybe millions of dollars attempting to do this throughout the world.

I think the energy might be better used in other ways because in the end the ones I admire most and am most likely to emulate are the ones who live by quiet example.

-E

[the mage]

Ok, I have a question here, and I apologize if people get offended. I just want to clarify something, because I am confused: if I am atheist and I think there is no god, and a friend of mine believes there is a god, isn't that friend, from my perspective, not universally, wrong? The same applies to all the different beliefs: if I believe something is one way, and you think it is another way, you might be right, but not to me. What I am trying to say here is that one thing is respecting people, which I do regardless of whether or not I share their religious beliefs (as long as they don't interfere in my life or in that of a secular civil society), an another is saying that you don't think you are right and others wrong. It is not a question of arrogance, but of logic, in my opinion: if I believe in god and you don't, the sentence, "I think I am right, but I don't think you are wrong" does not make any sense to me. As long as I don't hurt you because of your beliefs, and as long as I accept that you might use the same logic towards me, I think it is my right to say "I think you are wrong".





.......................Lets see you PROVE him wrong....C'mon you're trying to use logic to fight belief.
Decide to expend your entire life energy in Proof of a "Belief" and you join the ranks of the Insanely religious.

[Delilah]

Are you born Pagan or can you become one?
I have ancestories that are Pagans. I was raised as a Catholic, converted to Christianity. I do believe in God without a shadow of a doubt. I don't believe half of the bible states. Moses lived to 600 years old?? WTF?? Must be some serious vitamins they had in those days.
I inheritated the name Delilah from my mother. She gave it to me when I told her I am transitioning. Then the cats got out of the bag with her lol. The name wasn't taken from the Bible and people always describe me as the bad girl of the Bible...lol I thought Jezzibelle was the bad girl of the Bible.
There are Pagans in the Far East especially within Buddist. I take up martial art and my Sensei who was with the Shoalin at one time is Buddist/Pagan. Can that happen? He told me that I have the traits of a Pagan. Always wearing black, rarely eat meat which I'm already borderline Vegaterian. I honor life and respect all life. He saw me spare the life of a spider in his house after meditation. Instead of killing it, I let it outside. Is that Paganism? Respecting nature and honoring them? If I really have Pagan in me, what do I do to acknowledge it and embrace it instead of shunning it as I have done all my life. What is a Pagan?

[curiouskitten]

I am a Pagan, thank the Goddess

[FalconAngel]

Are you born Pagan or can you become one?
I have ancestories that are Pagans. I was raised as a Catholic, converted to Christianity. I do believe in God without a shadow of a doubt. I don't believe half of the bible states. Moses lived to 600 years old?? WTF?? Must be some serious vitamins they had in those days.
I inheritated the name Delilah from my mother. She gave it to me when I told her I am transitioning. Then the cats got out of the bag with her lol. The name wasn't taken from the Bible and people always describe me as the bad girl of the Bible...lol I thought Jezzibelle was the bad girl of the Bible.
There are Pagans in the Far East especially within Buddist. I take up martial art and my Sensei who was with the Shoalin at one time is Buddist/Pagan. Can that happen? He told me that I have the traits of a Pagan. Always wearing black, rarely eat meat which I'm already borderline Vegaterian. I honor life and respect all life. He saw me spare the life of a spider in his house after meditation. Instead of killing it, I let it outside. Is that Paganism? Respecting nature and honoring them? If I really have Pagan in me, what do I do to acknowledge it and embrace it instead of shunning it as I have done all my life. What is a Pagan?

Merry Meet.

You can be born Pagan. If your parents are Pagan and raise you as Pagan, then you are Pagan.

Many times, after a couple of generations or so, you would be called a "hereditary Witch". That means that you have been raised in the Craft and are trained, from childhood, in the practice of ritual and the celebration of the Sabbats and the practice of majic.

As far as Pagans in the Middle East, that is difficult to say, but I wouldn't discount it.

Paganism is a Nature religion. It follows the natural flow of life, the seasons and those who become priests and priestesses practice majc, using the natural energies of the universe. We respect the Earth and life, and we follow the Wiccan Rede of; And it harm none, do as you will.

Pagans believe in all of the Gods and Godesses and many believe in reincarnation. We believe in Ghosts and most of us use the parting of the veils to let those who've passed communicate with us on Samhain.

As far as Buddist Pagans, it isn't impossible, but it is rare. The two beliefs are not incompatible. And while there are Vegetarians in Paganism, most of us are far from being vegetarian. Nature didn't give us the mix of tooth types that we have to be vegan. We are omnivores for a reason.
But respect for life does not necessarily mean that you have to be vegan. Native Americans that follow their ancient tribal ways are also, technically, Pagan. Respect for life does not discount eating meat. Although, if you hunt for meat, you should not let any part of the animal go to waste, if it is at all possible.

Respecting life is a very Pagan thing.

Pagans are very ravenous readers as well. Most of us have HUGE libraries of books on everything from the Sabbats to meditation to color majic to Native American Shamanism. Basically everything that we need plus other things.

If you really want to get a jumpstart, find some local Pagans. Usually you can find them at a Unitarian Universalist church. They all tend to be eclectic and you will probably find what many pagans call "frufru" pagans. Frufru Pagans are the throwbacks to 60's para-Pagan practices that came out of the California hippie movement.
If they act and talk like "Phoebe" (from the tv show Friends) then they are frufru.

Not all eclectics are like that and some are solitary practitioners. If you are looking for a traditional path, then check the local metaphysical bookstores. many have contact lists for people seeking a traditional path.
They will be able to put you in contact with Priestesses in your area.

Also, if you are able and there are shops holding them, then go to the pagan discussion groups (what many of us call "wicca 101":)) that they have.
Not only will you learn a lot, but you will also meet up with people who are connected within the Pagan community.

Normally, the persons running groups like that are already a priest or priestess of a coven and if you are very lucky, they may even be a Witch Queen or Magus.

But be careful. In Paganism we do not charge to teach. we charge only for services rendered, such as readings, spells created, incense or oils made, etc.

If someone tells you that they can teach you, but charges you, then run, do not walk, in the other direction.

Also, traditional paths are what they used to call "Mysteries Schools". They will tech you things which are "oathbound". That means that you may not discuss certain things with those outside of your coven/tradition or below your level of training.

A prime example is our situation. we are both trained in the Gardenerian path. My wife is 2nd degree and I am outer court. She can discuss outer court things with me but may only discuss inner court, 1st degree and 2nd degree things with our Priestess or our Priestess' Priestess. None of them may discuss anything in those levels with me until i reach those levels.

The advantage to following a traditional path is lineage. we can trace our coven's roots back to it's founder and the coven that he started from as well as their lineage.

The advantage to an eclectic path is that you can make your own rituals without regard to what the tradition dictates.
The disadvantage is that there is a very real possibility that you could have a bad flow of energy, or worse, you get hooked up in one of those "cult-like" groups of Pagans. Those are the ones that I hear the most horror stories about.

But, if eclectic is your thing, then the Unitarian Universalist Church is the best place to look for a coven.

Feel free to drop us a line if you have any questions about it.

Blessed Be

[*pan*]

well we are pagan, and as most of us know a lot of the gods were bisexual, so i see it as being natural to be bi, christian on the other hand see it as a great sin of sodemy, (sodem & gamora) probibly spelled it wrong but you get the idea, therefore they can't help but have feelings of guilt about mm sex even sex in general and see it as sin, so go figure whats the difference between christian or pagan bisexuals. one is free in their mind and the other is living in sin. this seems kinda scary that someone who believes they are doing wrong and will pay the ultimate penalty for sex would continue doing it, while on the other hand pagan bisexuals see it as natural.:2cents:

[elian]

......why do so many fundamentalist Christians gay-bash (for lack of a better term)? I have never understood that.......I was raised Christian, Methodist. I was raised to treat others as I would like to be treated. No discrimination of race, sex, age, orientation, etc. I just don't get that whole "traditional" or fundamentalist Christian belief that people of other orientations are not welcome.....

I infuriate some people when I say - "The Bible may be the word of God, but it was written by the hand of man."

Religion has always been used by SOME people to justify the goals of men - at one time passages of the Bible were used to justify slavery; "God told me to blow up that bus full of innocent schoolchildren" - that sort of thing.

So for all of you that hear voices in your head you gotta ask the question - just like in the movie "The Messenger" - "Are you hearing what I'm telling you, or are you hearing what you WANT to hear?"

Fanatical deranged people drive me crazy.
-E

[elian]

Ok, I have a question here, and I apologize if people get offended. I just want to clarify something, because I am confused: if I am atheist and I think there is no god, and a friend of mine believes there is a god, isn't that friend, from my perspective, not universally, wrong? The same applies to all the different beliefs: if I believe something is one way, and you think it is another way, you might be right, but not to me. What I am trying to say here is that one thing is respecting people, which I do regardless of whether or not I share their religious beliefs (as long as they don't interfere in my life or in that of a secular civil society), an another is saying that you don't think you are right and others wrong. It is not a question of arrogance, but of logic, in my opinion: if I believe in god and you don't, the sentence, "I think I am right, but I don't think you are wrong" does not make any sense to me. As long as I don't hurt you because of your beliefs, and as long as I accept that you might use the same logic towards me, I think it is my right to say "I think you are wrong".

I've been told that one true hallmark of being an adult is to be able to disagree and still trust each other enough to sleep together.