Sexual Exclusivity

[innaminka]

I had an in depth discussion with my older daughter last night about the fundamentals of love.
She's doing "Othello" at school and of course the "What is Love?" question is the ever present basis of assessment.
We talked and i gave her my opinion, and she raised a point about fidelity which of course is a basis of the play.
What does fidelity in our modern world imply? She is a Desperate Housewives fan and along with other shows, knows all about "cheating," which, being a potential Cinderella, she abhors.
To her sexual exclusivity is paramount to fidelity.

My wonderings are somewhat different. Historically, sexual exclusivity was necessary to certify inheritance. The "Lord" wanted to know his castle would go to his progeny. Hence chastity belts.
Today its a different society.
To what extent is sexual exclusivity the crux for a successful marriage? I am not talking love - but sex.
Anyone who has had a real love affair outside of marriage knows the destructive effect it has on a partnership - yes, been there done that! I know!!!
However does my body belong exclusively to my husband and his to me? To what extent is it possible to have carefree, (bad word, I know but...) stringless sexual activity with others?

Our marriage has never been based on Sexual Exclusivity. Love Exclusivity, certainly.
Our work schedules (we're physically away from each other for up to 5 months a year) facilitate this. If either of us does, it is far far away.
I have and do. :female: :female:
I asume he does; I hope he does - Karratha in cyclone season is a s**t place to be.

Just any thoughts on what turned out to be a not very coherent ramble.

[Long Duck Dong]

its a interesting question.....

I know a number of people that believe that total commitment is the secret to a solid relationship/ marriage

but it begs the question, at what part does a partner become a * property *

if i was to look at it honestly.... to me sex is the simple using of a body to furfil a biological need / desire... oh course thats all the emotional / moral aspects removed

we often use the idea that if you love a person you would never need another in your life.... but that only works if the two people are of a totally co dependent nature.... they live for each other and can't live without each other and thats like saying that heteros, gays and bisexuals are all the same

in essense, there is 3 levels of people.... the friendship people the relationship people and the marriage people

friendship people thrive with friendships, and struggle in relationships and marriage

relationship people can have good friendships, awesome relationships but struggle in marriage

marriage people have good friendships, cope in relationships but thrive in marriages

in this day and age, equality is the key to a marriage and back a few centuries, it was the same.... until somebody decided that a lady was not a person that needs rights....and so we got the * male right aspect *

now we are coming into the age of * its my body, my choice *...instead of the * its my body, but your marriage, your rules, your decisions and I should just lay down and spread my legs *

the basis of marriage for many, many years was built on the idea that a lady loved her husband and accepted the fact that he ruled her....and so her body belonged to him....but society twisted that with fairytales to hide the true aspect of marriage....ladies were not allowed to choose, they were told....

sexual exclusivity has no affect on marriage.... it actually affects the people involved....and they decide if the marriage can survive such a event.....
but the interesting aspect of that, is the way in which people see infidelity
its not a case of * if you love me, you would never wander * but more a case of * how dare you, your actions make me feel like shit *...* you are my partner, you have no right to wander *..* what is more important, your need to fuck around or my mental / emotional wellbeing *

I know people will agree and disagree... but thats when the question is raised..... is their opinion, like mine, based on basic facts, or the idea that its what I think, therefore its right for all..... lol
in my case, its a opinion.... I simply draw a line down the middle and call the facts as they present themselves, lol....

[biwords]

So there are several different questions here:

1. What does fidelity in our modern world imply?

Ask different people, get different answers. I'd put it another way: what kind of fidelity is most likely to contribute to you and your loved ones' happiness?

2. To what extent is sexual exclusivity the crux for a successful marriage?

Again, hard to say; I gather there aren't many examples of 'open marriages' that have survived many years. Is that because it's an unstable model, or because too many people agree to this arrangement in hopes of saving a marriage that's already in trouble?

I'm not sure there's any inherent reason why a couple might not negotiate terms that permit each of them something 'outside'. Even if the relationship fails, that doesn't prove that it wouldn't have worked for two other people. And of course, plenty of impeccably monogamous relationships bust up, too. Maybe, in some cases, because of the monogamy?

It would be interesting to speak to some long-time polyamorists about this.

3. Does your body belong exclusively to your husband and v-versa?

If husband and wife agree that it doesn't, who's to tell them otherwise?

By the way, if you Google 'Taken in Hand', you'll find a website for straight couples who have agreed that the man will be the leader to the extent of physically disciplining the woman, sometimes daily.

Some TIH women commit, as a matter of principle, never to refuse their husbands sex.

Some TIH men begin their mornings choosing what 'their' women will wear that day.

The site "enslavement.org" is even more extreme; the consensually-enslaved wife surrenders total control of her person and property to her husband, who can command her to have sex with other men or women, require her to ask his permission before speaking, have her eat at a separate table or out of a dog bowl, etc. It sure wouldn't work for me, but many TIHers, at any rate, say they've never been happier. I know a well-read, smart, funny, down-to-earth TIH woman who gets irritable and tense if she's not spanked every day. Go figure....

4. To what extent is it possible to have no-strings sex [meaning, I take it, without it turning into something deeper and therefore more threatening to the marriage?].

Folk wisdom has it that men do this more easily than women, but even if that's true in general, it doesn't help us predict whether any given couple could make it work or not. Personally, I'd rarely if ever want sex with anyone I didn't feel affection for; but then, I've always found it easy to feel affection -- especially for people who want to have sex with me! :)

We've all heard that the only truly safe sex is masturbation (leaving aside for the moment those poor folks who manage to asphyxiate themselves). Getting married has risks, staying monogamous has risks, having kids has risks, everything has risks. It all comes down to whether love is present and whether both parties share a similar tolerance or appetite for risk.

I've written this as if I'm sure of what I'm talking about. Anything but! It'll be good, as always, to see what others here think...

[deremarc]

I am a rational person, or so I choose to believe. Faced with my man's possible bisexuality and desire to swing, I have done a lot of evaluating.

Bisexuality itself does not bother me. Sexual exclusivity does. I have said I don't know why I am monogamous, I just am. And, maybe that is so.

In the interests of working on our relationship, and in wanting to give him what he seems to want and need, I have tried to wrap my head and heart around an open sex life.

To me it is all a paradox, and all I do is talk myself in an endless circle.

My conversations start with...it's okay. It's just sex, it is just bodies. He LOVES you. You love him. It doesn't matter. It is just physical pleasure. Wait! What? It doesn't matter? It is "just" sex. Then why can't it be with me? Don't I give him physical pleasure? (and I am not talking men here but other women). And, if he needs sex with others, doesn't that mean I am not enough to satisfy him? Doesn't he like sex with me? I drive myself crazy.

Then the conversation (with myself)...you love him, he wants this, you should want him to be happy. Okay, let's do it. I can handle it. It will be okay. Wait a minute. Him having sex with others hurts me. Does it hurt him not to? Why doesn't he have to want to make me happy or at least not hurt me?

Okay, quit being a baby. You can (and have) had sex that doesn't mean anything at all, just physical pleasure. No love between you (remember the one night stands after the divorce). So, sex and love ARE separate. Let him have his fun. You can enjoy sex and would still love him the same, right? Of course! Okay. It's okay. He'll still love you.

But, I don't want him to be with someone else. It makes me FEEL unloved, even though I KNOW rationally that is not true.

I don't want him to want someone else more. And he says he doesn't. But, if he chooses to have sex with someone else, isn't that him wanting them more (at least right then?)

I don't think the lifestyle is wrong. I just can't seem to get myself to be okay with doing it.

I don't think I am a prude. I love sex. I just don't have the desire to have it somewhere other than with him. I have the best sex I have ever had with him. So, he is always available...so I would just choose him.

The pull to have sex with others is just not there for me. I don't want to. If I was single would I? Sure. Is it in my upbringing, societies values? born in my genes? I don't know. I can't seem to fix it though, no matter how hard I try. Maybe that is the way he feels when he struggles with being bisexual or with wanting to swing. It just "is' for both of us.

So, here we sit holding hands through the fence yet again. I don't truly understand bisexuality, I don't truly get swinging. He probably doesn't understand my straightness or monogamous nature.

So, do I think you can have a great relationship full of love and not being sexually exclusive? Absolutely! Do I wish I could do that? Yeppers. But, I think both people have to be in the same place. That much more than sexual orientation can be a killer in a relationship.

[Domino]

It's totally up to the individual. Myself I would be way ok with my male partner having sex with other men, I could do the same with other woman. But as far as him with other woman or me with other men I draw the line.

I understand the concept of matters of the heart kept exclusive, but I just could not share my man with another woman it would hurt me way to much.

[flexuality]

I apologize up front here if I step on any toes. It's not my intention to do so, however I have some pretty strong OPINIONS on these issues.

Domino and deremarc - I hear ya! Been there, done that, got the T-shirt, still struggle sometimes.

Like you deremarc, I too PUSHED myself for a long time to "get okay" with those things. I think that at some level (way down deep) I kind of hoped they'd go away if I could just "get okay" with them.

What I found was that it didn't work. All I was doing was driving myself crazy going in circles, trying to deny how I really felt. And how I REALLY felt at that time was SCARED SHITLESS. I kept trying to convince myself that it was "okay" and that I shouldn't feel that way, etc, etc,......

I finally had to just stop and admit to myself all the nasty, embarassing, icky, feelings I was trying to deny. I had to LET THEM BE THERE. I had to learn to not only let them be there, but also to embrace them. They are MY feelings and they ARE valid.

What Sol and I have discovered is that INTEGRITY is the only thing that really counts in the end - for any relationship and especially for marriage.

I do not believe in ANY rules for marriage EXCEPT what the two people involved make. And I hesitate to call them "rules" even. More like enthusiastic AGREEMENTS.

What is right for US, may not be right for you. It is the agreements and the integrity to stick to them that makes or breaks a marriage or any long term relationship.

If you BOTH agree to exclusive sex, then stick to that agreement until/unless you make a different agreement. If you BOTH agree to non-exclusive sex, then stick to that until/unless you change it together.

I get tired of hearing "My spouse/partner/wife/husband wouldn't understand, so I just do it behind their back" and then claim that their partner is against bisexuality/swinging/non-exclusiveness (or whatever) and then try to say that they do it this way because they love their partner. BULLSHIT.

Quit deluding yourself!

Love is not a noun. Love is a VERB.

Lying to your partner, who supposedly is the most important person to you, is an action. A VERB. It is not a loving action, it is a LIE.

Somewhere in all this "I have a right to be bisexual/attracted to other people/whatever" we get so hung up on our "right" that we fail to realize that we don't know how to communicate these things to our "significant other" (I hate that term! lol) without either attacking or becoming defensive and thereby landing ourselves in "the argument from hell."

It becomes just so much easier to avoid the whole thing and sneak around and kid ourselves into believing that it's somehow "better" this way.

For how long??

It has been my experience that EVERYTHING we do comes back to us eventually. Yeah, it may seem like the best way now, but sooner or later it'll bite you in the ass BIGTIME.

Why would anyone want to have a marriage/relationship where you had to constantly lie??

I always found that with lying I had to try to remember who I told what to and somehow I never could! It's just too much bloody work to lie and eventually it comes out and all through it ya feel like shit. That's just not my idea of fun.

Learning to communicate effectively is not easy, but it has been very well worth it. I had to become very aware of my tendency to be very confrontational when I felt attacked or defensive or scared. Who wants to share some of those very personal feelings with someone who's sounding like they're attacking?

One of the BEST books I ever read (and we both read it actually) was "Men Are From Mars, Women Are From Venus" by John Gray PhD. I hate to think where we'd be without it.

Deremarc, I know how you feel when you say "more" attracted or that your husband must want the "other woman more" and I had a hard time wrapping my head around the FACT that "more" was only MY perception, not his. My husband loves me the MOST and finds me the MOST attractive and wants sex with me the MOST. There is no "more" in it for him. Matter of fact he really didn't know what the heck I was talking about when I tried to explain my feelings about that!

Bottom line for me I guess is that INTEGRITY is what counts. Integrity to make agreements that work for BOTH people, and integrity to stick with those agreements.

*climbing off soapbox.....*

[sammie19]

Sound advice Flexuality. All too often people just care about themselves and never pay heed to the concerns of their partner. Its me me me and arguing that the partner will not understand is merely an excuse to do as thy will. Integrity is in all too short supply.

[Solomon]

I would just like to say that I feel the same way as Flex when it comes to these questions between marriage.

Perhaps that's why I love Proverbs the most, Solomon (whether or not you believe, this is what's written) gives great detail on the differences between integrity and not. hurtful and not.

integrity's not in short supply, the truth always bubbles to the surface sooner or later.

i've heard it said by an awsome couple that "people of integrity expect to be believed, and when they're not, they let time prove them right".

time is the great beholder of integrity, and how much time do we get?

becoming a spouse deserves and demands our respect, and withholding that respect will create a living hell for the ones that neglect the partner that they themselves agreed to become a partner with.

[bookworm]

I don't have anything deep to add here...however...

If your daughter is studying Othello--an excellent play--might I suggest you rent/view the movie "O", a modern take on The Bard that is not only brilliantly cast and shot but true to the spirit of his words.

Just a thought.

[innaminka]

What Sol and I have discovered is that INTEGRITY is the only thing that really counts in the end - for any relationship and especially for marriage.

I do not believe in ANY rules for marriage EXCEPT what the two people involved make. And I hesitate to call them "rules" even. More like enthusiastic AGREEMENTS.



Beautifully put - thankyou. :flag3:

[deremarc]

So, flexuality, are you saying you are okay with it now? That "accepting" and "feeling" your feelings led you to being ok with things?

My guy doesn't understand either when I say he wants them "more". He says he loves me, he wants me...that is just "fun".

Still struggling. Didn't mind your soapbox...thanks for the help!

[flexuality]

So, flexuality, are you saying you are okay with it now? That "accepting" and "feeling" your feelings led you to being ok with things?

My guy doesn't understand either when I say he wants them "more". He says he loves me, he wants me...that is just "fun".

Still struggling. Didn't mind your soapbox...thanks for the help!

hmmm...it's not quite that black and white.

It's almost the wrong question to ask, but I am a LOT more able to deal with why that bothers me, rather than always putting all my energy into denying how I felt.

What it did lead to was the two of us being able to actually TALK about it instead of it turning into me becoming "panicky" cuz those feelings I didn't want to have were surfacing again, and then fighting over things that were in fact not the issue, or more accurately he had one issue, I had a different issue, but neither of us realized it at the time. We thought we were dealing with the SAME issue but we weren't.

We were able to come to an agreement that both of us are happy with. For us, if we're going to do anything sexually, we agree to make those decisions together.

Like you, I understand all of those things logically. It's the emotional reactions that kick in for me that for a long time made no sense. I'd have the "well, this is stupid, I know he loves me, I don't think there's anything wrong with these things, ...basically the same kinds of things you're saying in your post....if this is true, then why does it hurt etc.etc...." conflicts going on in my head and I used to believe that if I could just get rid of the thoughts and feelings that I didn't like, then everything would work itself out.

It would take me forever to try to explain it all here. Maybe a couple of things might help...for what it's worth.

(What follows comes from a LOT of reading and councilling - not anything I came up with! lol)

My feelings of being hurt, betrayed, not good enough...all of that....comes from my past - not from my husband. That's a long story.

I trust that my husband is not trying to hurt me (I do believe him when he says that) AND I feel hurt. (THIS is the part I had to "let be there" so that I could learn to not blame him for how I felt.)

Rather than asking myself WHY I feel hurt, I started asking myself WHAT about that makes me feel hurt. "What" questions seemed to shed a lot more light on things for me than "why" questions.

The subconcious does NOT know the difference between past and present. To it, everything is NOW. So whenever I would feel hurt by the idea of some of those things, I would look around for the "source" and guess who got targeted? It's not an intentional thing we do, it's actually a survival thing the brain does automatically.

I had to learn a lot about emotional responsibility. No one can "cause" my feelings, therefore no one is to blame for them either. They are mine. Easier said than done sometimes! lol

I read somewhere that "When we blame, we give up the right to change."

So I guess in answer to your question "Am I okay with things" there isn't really a simple answer.

IF he was in fact trying to hurt me, then it would be reasonable to not be okay with that. IF he was wanting someone else MORE, then it would be reasonable to not be okay with that too. IF he thought that I wasn't "good enough" then, again, it would be reasonable to not be okay with that either. IF he didn't love me or was lying to me, then it would be reasonable to not be okay with that too.

Those are the things I am not okay with.

When I play around with different sexual scenarios in my mind, I can now come up with quite a few that I AM okay with. :rolleyes: There are still a lot that I am NOT okay with, but that is human nature anyway.

Another thing I have realized is that he's not looking at any of this as "trying out the competition" (so to speak), he wants to have fun WITH ME, not without me or at my expense.

It's actually quite a relief to me to realize that it's perfectly okay for me to NOT be okay with EVERY sexual scenario coming down the road!

What has really suprised me though, is that HE'S not okay with pretty much everything I am not okay with too! :)

Neither one of us is okay with hurting the other. Neither of us is okay with lying. Neither of us wants a relationship that lacks integrity.

I am soooo grateful that he is patient and understanding with me....I can be pretty intense sometimes. lol! :( :rolleyes: :)

[deremarc]

Flexuality, thanks for the reply. I can be pretty intense as well, and think a LOT about things.

I did an exercise that a counselor gave me (I can't afford counselling but had a great phone consult). I was to imagine us doing the things he wanted and then try to zero in on my emotions. I was to isolate "what" made me uncomfortable. At what point did those emotions kick in.

I thought-this is so stupid. I am jealous and hurt. How hard will that be to figure out? But, I did it anyway-and I really sat there and imagined the whole thing. Bottom line for me-it made me feel "abandoned". (and for me that stems from childhood issues too.) And, would he be abandoning me or rejecting me? No. Like your situation, he wants it WITH me. He loves me, he wants me.

For me, it turned out it was not entirlely the sex acts that made me feel that way. It was his attention turned on someone else, feeling left out, left behind. It was imagining him staring into her eyes and connecting that hurt. Not actual sex, although some aspects of sex would make me more uncomfortable than others. I found for me the physical side was not as bad as I thought-it was the emotional/mental connection I struggled with.

The only physical portion that was really bad for me, had to do with my own body image and self esteem. He likes women who I call "monster-boobed" women. Huge. I am a respectable C, but have had kids and things have gone south a bit. I worried that he would end up liking their bodies better than mine. That they would be a better lay than me and he would end up fantasizing about them, and want them more-and quit wanting me. But, those negatives-my low self esteem, worrying about whether I am "good enough" in bed-don't come from him either. I didn't want him to like their bodies more and fantasize about them. And, also worried that he would come to prefer them to me. Again, the negative self image and the worry about how "good I am in bed" issues are mine, and don't stem from him.Those are my own issues.

The part about him not being responsible for those negative feelings hit home for me. That is true. Those feelings I have don't stem from him. They may stem from the thought of what he wants, but the base emotions and negative reactions are mine, and mine alone.

I guess that is a step above the blind panic and sick stomach and anger that I felt and directed at him whenever the topic came up.

I think integrity you are also right that integrity is key. And patience...lol.

[TorontoGuy2007]

my understanding of being "in love" is that you only want to be with that one person.. if you do not desire sexual exclusivity with someone, then by my definition, you may love them, but you aren't "in love"

i don't see sexual exclusivity as being "property" of the spouse. i don't see sexual exclusivity as a negative or constricting thing. it is what i want and what i desire.. i want someone to love me so much that they will want me to be the only sex partner they ever have, and vice-versa.. anyone who desires anything less is not truly worthy of having me being "in love" with them..

that's my take on it, but i know i am in the minority with these values.

[flexuality]

my understanding of being "in love" is that you only want to be with that one person.. if you do not desire sexual exclusivity with someone, then by my definition, you may love them, but you aren't "in love"

i don't see sexual exclusivity as being "property" of the spouse. i don't see sexual exclusivity as a negative or constricting thing. it is what i want and what i desire.. i want someone to love me so much that they will want me to be the only sex partner they ever have, and vice-versa.. anyone who desires anything less is not truly worthy of having me being "in love" with them..

that's my take on it, but i know i am in the minority with these values.

I agree with you.

At first glance, that may sound contradictory to what I have been saying in this thread, but it's not. :)

That is where integrity comes in. My husband and I are both willing to be exclusive with each other and we have no desire to do anything to take away from that.

We are also open to expanding our sexual activity only IF that is what we both want and agree to.

That is not a statement about exclusiveness - it's a statement about agreements and integrity. If the agreement was for exclusiveness, then I would expect that agreement to be stuck to as well.

Same coin, different side. :cool:

and I'm probably in the minority with my values too! I'm just glad to be married to someone who holds the same values as I do. :)

[Domino]

I agree with you.

At first glance, that may sound contradictory to what I have been saying in this thread, but it's not. :)

That is where integrity comes in. My husband and I are both willing to be exclusive with each other and we have no desire to do anything to take away from that.

We are also open to expanding our sexual activity only IF that is what we both want and agree to.

That is not a statement about exclusiveness - it's a statement about agreements and integrity. If the agreement was for exclusiveness, then I would expect that agreement to be stuck to as well.

Same coin, different side. :cool:

and I'm probably in the minority with my values too! I'm just glad to be married to someone who holds the same values as I do. :)

I like what you say, it is what I am like. :bigrin: and would be in a relationship.

[Solomon]

my understanding of being "in love" is that you only want to be with that one person.. if you do not desire sexual exclusivity with someone, then by my definition, you may love them, but you aren't "in love"

i don't see sexual exclusivity as being "property" of the spouse. i don't see sexual exclusivity as a negative or constricting thing. it is what i want and what i desire.. i want someone to love me so much that they will want me to be the only sex partner they ever have, and vice-versa.. anyone who desires anything less is not truly worthy of having me being "in love" with them..

that's my take on it, but i know i am in the minority with these values.

to be honest, you have every right to define love for yourself... and if exclusiveness works for ya then so be it.

i would see your definition to be constricting, because it only allows for puppy love. a love that endures doesn't necessarily have anything to do with sexual exclusivity in as much as it has to do with relational integrity.

and truthfully i think that you're actually in the majority of society in viewing relationships in a sexually exclusive light.

[darkeyes]

Have tried exclusivity in me life. Each time one way or other wos a disaster an peeps got badly hurt. Not sayin me will never b exclusive jus that it aint easy, spesh wen feelins get in the way an am not sure howeva hard me has a go at it that it wud eva work for me. But funnily enuff me hopes so cos deep down am jus a lil romantic wiv dreams like ne 1 else.