9 LGBTQ Suicides In ONE School

[RavenEye]

Over the past two years nine LGBTQ kids have committed suicide due to bullying/harassment. Not just from peers but from the school as well with their Anti-Gay policies.

Read More: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2096922/9-student-suicides-Michele-Bacmanns-Minnesota-linked-anti-gay-bullying.html

So sad. :'(

[Long Duck Dong]

according to the article, 4 students were gay or thought to be, not 9....... the other 5 were unknown as to why they committed suicide..... so the article is misleading and misrepresenting facts for better impact...

there are times that I wish the media would report the news, not push agenda

I get the strong feeling from a couple of the pics that some of the males were EMO, not gay...

Emo defination:
Today emo is commonly tied to both music and fashion as well as the emo subculture. Usually among teens, the term "emo" is stereotyped with wearing slim-fit jeans (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slim-fit_pants), sometimes in bright colors, and tight T-shirts (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T-shirt) (usually short-sleeved) which often bear the names of emo bands. Studded belts (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belt_(clothing)) and black wristbands are common accessories in emo fashion. Some males also wear thick, black horn-rimmed glasses (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horn-rimmed_glasses).
The emo fashion is also recognized for its hairstyles. Popular looks include long side-swept bangs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fringe_(hair)), sometimes covering one or both eyes. Also popular is hair that is straightened and dyed black. Bright colors, such as blue, pink, red, or bleached blond, are also typical as highlights in emo hairstyles. Short, choppy layers of hair are also common. This fashion has at times been characterized as a fad (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fads_and_trends). In the early 2000s, emo fashion was associated with a clean cut look, but as the style spread to younger teenagers, the style has become darker, with long bangs and emphasis on the color black replacing sweater vests (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweater_vest).
Emo has been associated with a stereotype that includes being particularly emotional, sensitive, shy, introverted, or angst (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angst)-ridden. It has also been associated with depression (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depression_(mood)), self-injury (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-injury), and suicide (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide).

but that is assumption about the person, a lot like the article is assuming why the teens took their own lives.....

[tenni]

"Ms Anderson is the one who first introduced and authored the so-called 'No Homo Promo' policy which told teachers in the district to avoid any talk of homosexuality within the schools.
The idea that homosexuality is 'wrong' and the belief that it is a 'sinful choice' is something that essentially became a school rule as students perceived their teacher's silence as a admission of fault and blame."
"Anoka-Hennepin is currently under federal investigation for infringing civil rights because it refused to add lessons promoting homosexuality to the curriculum.
Several LGBT students are also suing the district claiming to have been ignored by staff after complaining of being harassed physically and verbally for long periods of time."

"Teachers were instructed to say that, if they witnessed verbal bullying of a student perceived to be gay, 'In this school we are required to welcome all people and to make them feel safe' but they were told not to show 'personal support for GLBT people'."

The above quotes from the article indicate to me that bullying is more than tolerated in this school district. Whether it is five or nine suicides that have as their base hatred, is tragic. For teachers to be told to be neutral when they see bullying is to prevent teachers from doing what other education districts consider "doing their job". It is teaching bigotry by inaction.

[darkeyes]

There is a perception, encouraged by EMOs themselves that bisexuality is a large part of their being.. probably more than any group of young people they are not only open to it but many would argue that EMOsexuality which is what they call their sexuality, most do not refer to it as bisexuality, is necessary to be considered a true EMO. Some argue that being EMOsexual is a form of street credibility and not true bisexuality, but bisexuality or EMOsexuality is a large part of the culture whether it is real or is, as in some cases at least, only for purposes of street or group cred.. from my observations of them both true bisexuality and the group credibility kind exist although which is the predominant is anyone's guess...

However.. the EMO perception of him or herself is such, that the perception of EMO by others outside of the culture is that bisexuality/homosexuality (and many do not differentiate between homosexuality and bisexuality) runs through the EMO culture and it would be surprising that those who wish nothing but harm to anyone who is not of the "norm" in their opinion, did not bully, intimidate, persecute and worse those they perceive to be gay or bisexual simply because they are EMO..

[keladry]

I used to volunteer in this district with kids who went to those the high schools... during the time frame. Whether it's nine, five, or one, whether the kids were gay, perceived to be lgbt or "normal" whatever that is.... Children are killing themselves and anything we can do to lower that number to zero should be done. One is too many. One is a huge tragedy. One life snuffed out is unimaginably heartbreaking. Were all the kids gay? Does that really matter? If someone makes fun of you for being queer does it matter if you are or not? If someone calls you a whore all the time does it matter if you are one or not? If someone slams you into a locker and tells you you are trash does it matter if you are gay or emo or a slut or whatever? All are still people and don't deserve that treatment, no matter who they are.

I personally know one of the girls who was best friends with one of the kids who ended his life. She was heart broken and told me that she understood why her friend did it, even she wishes he had not. She said she *understood* that's how bad that school is, she could understand why he did what he did. She hates that school, she told me it was toxic... and she's a pretty athletic involved heteronormative seeming girl. She has lots of friends but in my opinion didn't have a lot at that school because she was friends with this kid... she didn't tell me she was bullied as well, but I can't imagine it's been fun for her. She still posts about him on facebook. I'm sure she talks about him even though I can't know that since I'm not there anymore. This was and is heartbreaking and this is just one of the kids. Just one... the sadness of one of the friends of one of the teenagers... and it breaks my heart.

The teachers can get *fired* for having a rainbow over their door or saying it's okay to be gay. Fired. (Unless that has changed in the year since I moved away...I don't think so) It's horrifying and tragic. The district has been resisting calls from the state legislature to clean up their act...

I didn't know him but I won't forget him because she introduced him to me. He wasn't the first, he wasn't the last, and I can't help but wonder if something had changed in the district if he might have made a different choice, if the kids after him might have made a different choice. It's impossible to be sure he wouldn't have killed himself, but it's also hard to argue he would have done it regardless...

If the district can change a policy and save even one life, how is that not worth it?

[Brian]

That is so very tragic and sad.

Religious fundamentalism is pure evil. It is a dark pit where the part of the brain that practices science-based thoughtful reasoning is shut down with harmful consequences to communities.

- Drew :paw:

[Brian]

4356I might be a believer now. It can`t be a coincidence!!

- Drew :paw:

;)

[Gearbox]

4356I might be a believer now. It can`t be a coincidence!!

- Drew :paw:

;)

That's the kind of thing the Antichrist would do. Attack religion on his 666th post, then flaunt it and deny it.

May as well just fess up. We can ALL see that you photoshopped the horns out!:rolleyes:

[DuckiesDarling]

Just amazing... it's from July 2011, so it gets posted NOW here and everyone gets up in arms. Sorry, but yeah kids committed suicide and that's a tragedy but did they really commit suicide for the reasons implied? I don't know if they did or they didn't. It's true that Bachman is a complete idiot but to pin every single thing on the fact the kids may or may not have been LGBT is pretty ludicrous and apparently steps are being taken in that area to stop the bullying of all kids, not just LGBT or possible LGBT, but on all genders, sexualities and races. Please pay attention to dates on items posted and then do more searching to see if the issue has already been addressed rather than jump on a bandwagon. :2cents:

[Brian]

First, I feel kindof bad about horsing around in one of my previous comments in this thread. It is a very serious topic - and so very sad and tragic.

You raise at least one good point DD, and the same thought did cross my mind... "How do they know why they committed suicide? If it was because of GLBTQ issues, would they have told anyone? Would they approve of their photos being printed and the suggestion being that they were GLBTQ? How solid is this article?"

About the article date though. It may be old news in some circles, but the article does have the date 6-Feb-2012. And it was news to me - probably the original poster too.

Anyway, let's all remember how difficult it was being a teenager (GLBT or Questioning or Straight). It really does get better. (http://www.itgetsbetter.org/page/s/pledge)

Take the pledge if you haven't already: http://www.itgetsbetter.org/page/s/pledge

THE PLEDGE: Everyone deserves to be respected for who they are. I pledge to spread this message to my friends, family and neighbors. I'll speak up against hate and intolerance whenever I see it, at school and at work. I'll provide hope for lesbian, gay, bi, trans and other bullied teens by letting them know that "It Gets Better."

- Drew :paw:

[RavenEye]

Indeed it was news to me. And DD if you look underneath the photos some say they were out. Anyways it doesn't look like the school took care of anything. Otherwise why post about it now unless it's still happening? And yes Drew teenage years are the worst. I remember my suicidal days, dark times. :( But thank GaGa I'm gonna be 20 in 3 weeks! :bounce:

[DuckiesDarling]

Raven, my question wasn't if some were out or not, my question is was that for sure the reason they committed suicide? You don't know, we will never know. We can guess, we can blame, we can speculate, but the only thing that is sure is that a child committed suicide.

[Long Duck Dong]

schools...this did not all happen at one school, it happened in a school district and based around my research, there are 33+ schools in the school district....

the nytimes article I found about the issue mentioned 8 students, not 9 ( sept 2011 ) with 4 students assumed to be gay / bisexual..... but there were about 3-4 LGBT students suing the school district..... and what I think has happened, is that some journalist combined the two issues into one... cos the US and OK newpapers are saying different stories with different facts about the same issue

I keep coming back to the fact that its not only LGBT students that are committing suicide but every time its claimed that bullying is the reason for it...but bullying is not the only reason that people commit suicide... there is many other reasons and we need to think about that before we point fingers and make accusations

[keladry]

For me it is not about placing blame but about trying to make change. We should examine a suicide and try to look at what contributed to the the person killing themselves. And then we should do something about it... is it about blame? It's not about that for me it's about the idea that maybe one of those kids might not have killed themselves if they hadn't been bullied. That's all I need. Is a "maybe not" for one. That is more than enough of a reason to want to stop children from being harassed. Shouldn't it be? What's wrong with trying to take a tragedy, and learn from it? Isn't that the best possible thing we can do? I don't understand the need to chastise people who are looking for answers and who are crying out for change...

I will say it once more: if a campaign to end bullying saves one life it was worth it. If it has a chance to save one life, it was worth it. That's the value I place on human life though. That's just me.

[keladry]

Of course we should be looking at other factors that contribute to suicide when addressing this, and I do... but I don't really see what's so bad about taking something that isn't a good thing (being bullied) and saying that maybe we should stop that... and that maybe that would make a difference... I'm not saying bullying was the sole factor or even the most important one (though it might have been)... but even if it's just the straw that broke the camel's back... what's so wrong with attacking bullying? I really don't understand.

[Long Duck Dong]

I think I can answer you keladry... there is nothing wrong with attacking bullying, the trouble is that people are full of ideas on how to stop it..... and yet we are seeing a steady increase in bullying... specially in NZ, despite all of the *protections * and * rights of people * and a increasing suicide rate... the trouble is that nobody is looking at what has changed in the last 30 years, they are all looking at the present and saying * why *... and a lot of it comes back to what we have created.... and that is diversity differences and rights with people.... too much freedom to express ourselves and that has led to a lack of control as we have removed a lot of the safequards using laws like the privacy act and the removal of corporal punishment.....

I am not saying that removing corporal punishment was wrong, but its strange how the more rights we have given students and removed from teachers, the more loss of control is being seen in classrooms and in society..... and the increase in violence and physical / mental / emotional abuse of people / suicides, in the family homes.....

we constantly believe that we are doing the right thing by creating a *loose * society... but are we ?.... the cost is climbing and society doesn't seem to be able to stem the flood of issues that we are seeing.... instead society wants others to be responsible for everything and there to be others to blame.....

how can we stop the bullies when we are empowering them, cos we blame the school for the bullies, not the bullies themselves.. and in a sense, we are becoming the very bullies we decry when we * attack * people as biphobics, selfish, inconsiderate, insensitive, uncaring etc etc ( our own partners ) and we try to * bully * them into giving in to us.......

[elian]

That's a good response LDD, as many as 30 years ago people really didn't care how you FELT about anything - in my great grandparents' generation it was enough that you put food on the table and a roof over your head. The phenomenon of people expressing their inner thoughts openly in public is relatively new.

What is missing now, now that children don't feel safe in school so they carry a gun? What is missing now, now that children don't feel they have a future? What is missing now, that children in high school have to do college level work and have a boatload of activities "just to keep up" .. I've been out of school for a while, I wonder if I've got that right.

I disagree with the religious conservatives stance on LGBT rights because I believe that violence against consenting people about who they love is wrong. Having said that, I do believe that we need to train our children to have good moral values and a resilient spirit.. I am one of the biggest advocates for technology you'll probably find, but Martin Luther King Jr. said it best - "Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."

On that note I would also like to say that I think the general public's eschewing of science is a travesty - everybody these days would much rather be ENTERTAINED rather than EDUCATED .. "leave me alone, just as long as I have my "iPad" with my "Angry Birds" I just don't care!!"

I DON'T think "science will save us" completely, like they did during the era post-Great Depression, but I think anything we can do to get people to think, to believe in hope for the future, to actually use the whole capacity of their minds in a positive way is good. I can't help but see SOME parallels between that time, with so many people out of work, and this one. The only difference may be that financial credit is a lot more prevalent these days than back then.

We need to believe in and tell children maybe three things, #1 - it's OKAY to be who you are - you don't HAVE to aspire to be anyone else but you. #2 - You have self worth, people care about you and the community you grew up in will nurture you. #3 - the first two aren't an excuse to be lazy, everybody is good at SOMETHING and we expect you to use the talents you have productively.

I continue to believe that every person has a story to tell and that sometimes the strongest thing we can do to help someone is "just listen" .. let someone tell their story. Listening carries respect and (hopefully) empathy.

[tenni]

"If the district can change a policy and save even one life, how is that not worth it?"

I agree with you that this policy is extremely bad. It doesn't matter the exact numbers of suicides. The reason that a person commits suicide is that they do not see another option to end their discomfort. Adolescents may be fragile and their psychological perception of reality is easily shifted from healthy to unhealthy.

The fact that there is a negative, discriminatory policy that is rejecting about sexuality in this era is significant. Such a policy gives permission to ridicule and harass students that appear different.

Corporal punishment is not the solution to bullying or even as an appropriate consequence for any misbehaviour. Corporal punishment has been removed from the education system where I live for more than forty years. People have been complaining about children's behaviour since Aristotle's time. Suicides in adolescents has always existed as well but the public discussion of suicide has changed. Discussion of sexuality is wide and a fairly open aspect of society today and yet this policy shuts down discussion. Classroom management strategies have improved immensely in most areas since the removal of corporal punishment. In order to use many of these strategies it requires discussion and well as consequences for inappropriate actions.

Punishment is not the solution to misbehaviour. Consequences are. Natural consequences are the most effective and then applied consequences. The natural consequence of misbehaviour under this policy is that to bully a person is acceptable. There is no applied consequence permitted from leaders/teachers. This policy supports bullying as well as removing classroom management strategies. Teachers have always cared about their students well being or they wouldn't be in education. Exceptions to this premise may exist but as a general approach that is the truth based on personal observations for many years.

In order for a classroom and hallways to function in a healthy manner, there needs to be a tone of firm, fair and consistency of expectations. This policy does not support such an attitude within this district. I have seen both classrooms and schools where there is not a tone of firm fair and consistent expectations. It is the leader (classroom teacher, principal ) or leadership (policy of a school district) that is failing the students, teachers and community.

[æonpax]

Over the past two years nine LGBTQ kids have committed suicide due to bullying/harassment. Not just from peers but from the school as well with their Anti-Gay policies.
Read More: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2096922/9-student-suicides-Michele-Bacmanns-Minnesota-linked-anti-gay-bullying.htmlSo sad. :'(

Considering just the article you posted;

1) Michele Bachmann is fiercely anti-gay and considering her constituents keep electing her to repeated terms, they must tacitly agree with the outrageous things she says, to wit; Michele Bachmann’s Top Ten Anti-Gay Quotes - http://thenewcivilrightsmovement.com/michele-bachmanns-top-ten-anti-gay-quotes/politics/2011/06/02/21233 It would also be reasonable to surmise that the children being brought up in this heavily conservative area are equally as hateful towards gays and the school districts pay only lip service to any anti-bully policies they may have, especially in regards to gay teens.

2) In this case, the school districts involved are being justifiably sued not only locally but also by some national groups including the ACLU for among other things, the violation of their constitutional rights.

3) These supposed Christians that live in Bachmann’s district and their hatred, must live in a reality apart from any that I am aware of.



http://i.imgur.com/hbs03.jpg

[darkeyes]

If the way that the District deals with gay and bi kids is as stated, and I have no reason to doubt it's accuracy, then there is indeed something wrong in the state of Denmark... there seems to be a callous disregard of the feelings of children who may or not be gay or bisexual... children who are the most vulnerable of our community and most need out understanding and compassion in dealing with their problems.. about at least one group there seems to be an aboslute disregrad for their welfare... even if only one chid ended his or her life then the school and district have failed that child.. the community as a whole has failed that child.. we are talking of more than one child. Every child is different and we have to deal with his or her problems in ways which are best for the child... no real effort seems to have been made in trying to show any compassion for these children, and none seems to exist for dealing with the specific problems of gay and bisexual children as a whole..

I thank kismet that I live in a country and work in an education system which, although far from perfect, which still needs and always shall need improvement, deals with the issues of children with both care and compassion irrespective of his or her sexuality.. but even we will fail and children will end their own lives, but at least it will not be out of callous disregard for them because of who and what they are..

Æon makes very valid points in her post and if what we are led to believe is but half the truth, then I hope that those who have so badly failed these children are brought to book in some way and made to face up to their appalling treatment of young human beings...

[elian]

I was reading the quotes from Bachmann. If "our children are their prize" means that I stop one LGBT teen from killing themselves then yes, I do have in interest in straight people's kids..but my interest is not to "turn them gay" but that ALL children should have confidence, self-esteem - learn to love themselves and respect others..

You think of it as "hatred" of gay people aeon, but that's not how they view it. If they could recognize their prejudice for what it really is then we'd actually be getting somewhere but they view themselves as gatekeepers, keeping "the devil" out of their lives and the lives of the people they care about. To these folks there are many, many evil things in the world to fear or denounce and the "gay issue" is just one of them.

When I think about it, it's a complicated issue - because they've woven their spirituality into the institutional power structure that promotes and sustains their view of the world. It's all interconnected, this same structure and view gives them the basis of their power, so of course they are going to fight tooth and nail to protect it..they will say what needs to be said, and do what needs to be done - whether it's just and honest or not. Most people have a way of moulding the world around them to fit their own ego.

At the end of the movie "The Messenger" about the story of Joan of Arc she has a delusional episode in a prison cell where she talks to a priest to confess her sins.. She tells him about all of the "signs" she received from God to prove divine justification for her actions. The man asks her an interesting question. "Did you see what was really THERE, or did you see what you WANTED to see?"

These are real children and real lives we are talking about here and I think they deserve our respect, love and guidance..without fear of hatred.

[æonpax]

I was reading the quotes from Bachmann. If "our children are their prize" means that I stop one LGBT teen from killing themselves then yes, I do have in interest in straight people's kids..but my interest is not to "turn them gay" but that ALL children should have confidence, self-esteem - learn to love themselves and respect others..
You think of it as "hatred" of gay people aeon, but that's not how they view it. If they could recognize their prejudice for what it really is then we'd actually be getting somewhere but they view themselves as gatekeepers, keeping "the devil" out of their lives and the lives of the people they care about. To these folks there are many, many evil things in the world to fear or denounce and the "gay issue" is just one of them.
When I think about it, it's a complicated issue - because they've woven their spirituality into the institutional power structure that promotes and sustains their view of the world. It's all interconnected, this same structure and view gives them the basis of their power, so of course they are going to fight tooth and nail to protect it..they will say what needs to be said, and do what needs to be done - whether it's just and honest or not. Most people have a way of moulding the world around them to fit their own ego.
At the end of the movie "The Messenger" about the story of Joan of Arc she has a delusional episode in a prison cell where she talks to a priest to confess her sins.. She tells him about all of the "signs" she received from God to prove divine justification for her actions. The man asks her an interesting question. "Did you see what was really THERE, or did you see what you WANTED to see?"
These are real children and real lives we are talking about here and I think they deserve our respect, love and guidance..without fear of hatred.

With respect,

I have no doubt as to the sincerity of Bachmann and those Evangelicals who follow the same beliefs she does, in regards to being gay as an immoral sin. They can believe that all they want, I have no objections to any persons personal beliefs. Unfortunately, Bachmann and her religion are encroaching on my rights by pushing this issue into politics. That’s where this becomes problematic.

Bachman and her religious group embrace Christian Dominionism and Reconstructionism which they believe justifies their right to push their religious prohibitions on the general US public. This makes her, her religion and it’s faithful, suspect and the high incidences of suicide among gay youth in her district a direct cause of these tragic incidences.

What is deafening is the silence of Bachmann and her ilk in is demanding that harassment of all gay youth end and the condemnation of any further acts. I’ve seen nothing of the sort from these so-called Christians. I’ve also not seen these people even attempt to curb this harassment by appealing to that most basic of all Christian of tenets; Love one another.

When a child dies because they are being harassed because of their gay orientation, that is not Love and I daresay, using the word Hate to describe such actions is legitimate.

[elian]

I don't disagree, but if you ask them they'll probably tell you "they don't hate the person". I confronted a local pastor in a discussion forum one time by asking him what he would think if I said - "Pastor, we love you, we want you to be a part of our community, but you really need to stop seeing your wife."

When they think of "gay" they think mostly of the sexual act, and the sub/dom aspects..not about love..gay people meanwhile know that there ARE no necessarily dom/sub aspects and they love who they will love.

[Realist]

During my 2nd year of military school, another cadet, with whom I had sexual aspirations, got killed before we consummated our relationship. My roommate, who was a religious nut, because his parents had insitlled their fanaticism in him, suspected that the dead boy and I had "something going on". He threatened to out me and have me expelled, if I didn't go to church with him and study the bible with him every night. It wasn't hard for him and the preacher at the church, to convince me that my friend and I were being punished for our evil ways. I was 15, immature for my age, and very easily swayed. The trauma, resulting from my friend's death, and all that preaching, was getting me more and more depressed every day.

I came as close as I ever had to killing myself. I was having dreams about going to hell and being tortured in everlasting flames and pain! I was getting paranoid and felt that everyone knew I was a filthy QUEER! I had thoughts that I was going to humiliate myself and dishonor my family!

I had even stopped masturbating and forced myself to stop thinking about sex. But at night, I'd often dream about the pleasure of sex, during the same nights when I'd ream about hell! I'd awake in turmoil!

A wet dream would send me into the depths of despair, seeing another cadet naked in the showers would arouse me as well as scare me because I'd be attracted to them. Thoughts of suicide was beginning to become a viable option, for a way out!

Finally, I decided to talk to an English professor, who I thought may be gay, or at least would be a good person to advise me. That was my best move in some time! In one session, he put me at ease. He told me that I was more normal than I thought and he even agreed to talk to my roommate, about the fear he had instilled in me.

For the rest of the time I could go talk to that professor any time I needed to. Each time, he helped me to better understand myself and my bisexuality.

I have no idea what he said to my roommate, but he never again bugged me about going to hell! That was a relief.

[darkeyes]

With respect,

I have no doubt as to the sincerity of Bachmann and those Evangelicals who follow the same beliefs she does, in regards to being gay as an immoral sin. They can believe that all they want, I have no objections to any persons personal beliefs. Unfortunately, Bachmann and her religion are encroaching on my rights by pushing this issue into politics. That’s where this becomes problematic.

Bachman and her religious group embrace Christian Dominionism and Reconstructionism which they believe justifies their right to push their religious prohibitions on the general US public. This makes her, her religion and it’s faithful, suspect and the high incidences of suicide among gay youth in her district a direct cause of these tragic incidences.

What is deafening is the silence of Bachmann and her ilk in is demanding that harassment of all gay youth end and the condemnation of any further acts. I’ve seen nothing of the sort from these so-called Christians. I’ve also not seen these people even attempt to curb this harassment by appealing to that most basic of all Christian of tenets; Love one another.

When a child dies because they are being harassed because of their gay orientation, that is not Love and I daresay, using the word Hate to describe such actions is legitimate.

If we believe in democracy and freedom of speech we cannot deny the likes of Bachmann and her cronies the right to spread their poison... yes, they try and force upon us what they believe, but that is how democracy works... it is how freedom of speech works... they accuse us of the same thing in their own way..and we would not like too much being restricted in fighting for our view of how things should be.. that she and many others force into the political arena so many things we abhor does not mean that they do not have the right to do so... they do have that right and I defend them that right however mmuch I detest what they stand for... however much I loathe the message... and I am supremely confident that any message of compassion, understanding and tolerance will win out in the end... to a great extent the last half century has shown this to be true when it comes to lgbt issues. She and her cronies can argue for any issue they like.. that is their right and we cannot deny them it... it becomes a hypocrisy if we deny them that right and yet insist on our right to argue for anything we think must be considered in the political arena... to do other makes us as bad as they are...

Let them rant and argue and spread their poison.. we have been slowly winning over half a century and we shall continue that progress... open debate holds no fears for me... as long as it is open and free....it is when we restrict that debate and start proscribing what people can and cannot argue that we run into real problems because by doing so we make ourselves as intolerant as Bachmann and her like...

[elian]

It is true that we have slowly been making progress over the years..that gives me some hope. This is an issue that I take to heart because I was "different" in school and I was bullied. I have a soft spot for any child that has self esteem problems - not just the gay ones.

http://www.values.com/inspirational-stories-tv-spots/100-Concert

Years later what I found out was that those children who treated me badly actually had a life that was much worse at home. Taking those emotions out on me was the only way they could feel as if they were in control of *anything*. I will forgive them for that.

[æonpax]

I don't disagree, but if you ask them they'll probably tell you "they don't hate the person". I confronted a local pastor in a discussion forum one time by asking him what he would think if I said - "Pastor, we love you, we want you to be a part of our community, but you really need to stop seeing your wife."
When they think of "gay" they think mostly of the sexual act, and the sub/dom aspects..not about love..gay people meanwhile know that there ARE no necessarily dom/sub aspects and they love who they will love.

I agree with you, many people are misinformed as to what being gay is and base their judgement on the orientation by constantly referring to sex acts, in the majority of cases, sodomy. However, this opens a big can of worms insofar that the actions of bisexual men, many arguably looking just for casual mano e mano sex, are confused and or branded as being gay, when in fact they are bisexual....which is seldom, if ever, recognized on it's own.

[Long Duck Dong]

bisexuality in itself, is invisible..... you place a gay male and female, hetero male and female... and a bisexual male and female side by side... then get their partners to join them... you can pretty much tell the gay and hetero people..... but there is no way to tell the bisexual person unless they have two partners ( one of each sex ) or they tell you they are bisexual but only have one partner.....

so what are people supposed to do when it comes to bisexuals ?? be mind readers ? assume but be correct about our sexuality every time ??? ...... assumption is the mother of all misunderstandings....

instead of telling people what they are doing wrong... how about we start telling people how they can tell the difference between the sexualities without us telling them what sexuality we are

[æonpax]

If we believe in democracy and freedom of speech we cannot deny the likes of Bachmann and her cronies the right to spread their poison... {snipped for brevity}

I do not even try to hide my disdain for Bachmann and other whom are part of what I call, the extreme right. I also respect their right to practice their own religious beliefs in private.

While in truth, I see little or no chance for the US in becoming a theocracy, these social issues they are hammering at, are distracting many people from what I see as the big issue (or evil) in the US, a totalitarian oligarchy or plutocracy that is being suborned by the corporations. Nonetheless, to sit by and let people like Bachmann and her beliefs become party to actions that cause people harm and pain, without acting, is unacceptable to me.

No one, least of all me, is denying nor attempting to deny Bachmann's freedom of speech, nor is anyone being "intolerant"...critical? Hell yes, but if one tries to force their religious beliefs on me, they best get used to it.

Wherever you got that silly notion, I do not know. You are always welcome to come here to the US and defend her rights but this matter is NOT one of whether the far religious right is being denied anything, it is an ideological battle on a political plain. If you are far-right, then so be it. Bachmann's opinion is one thing...pushing that opinion on people by force of law, another.

[Gearbox]

bisexuality in itself, is invisible..... you place a gay male and female, hetero male and female... and a bisexual male and female side by side... then get their partners to join them... you can pretty much tell the gay and hetero people..... but there is no way to tell the bisexual person unless they have two partners ( one of each sex ) or they tell you they are bisexual but only have one partner.....

so what are people supposed to do when it comes to bisexuals ?? be mind readers ? assume but be correct about our sexuality every time ??? ...... assumption is the mother of all misunderstandings....

instead of telling people what they are doing wrong... how about we start telling people how they can tell the difference between the sexualities without us telling them what sexuality we are
Well you can't tell ANY sexuality just by what gender partner they have. It's just assumed unless told.
M-m & f-f are not partnerships dominated by homosexuals, and m-f ones are not dominated by heterosexuals.
Sexuality is invisible.

[darkeyes]

Wherever you got that silly notion, I do not know. You are always welcome to come here to the US and defend her rights but this matter is NOT one of whether the far religious right is being denied anything, it is an ideological battle on a political plain. If you are far-right, then so be it. Bachmann's opinion is one thing...pushing that opinion on people by force of law, another.
Silly notion? *laffs*... from your own words Æon.. I've been accused of just the same, so don't take it too much to heart... I wasnt accusing u but occasionally we all frame things in words in such a way as can be thrown back at us as saying something we didn't... best in such cases to clear up our intentions doncha think?

ps.. I know u werent speaking of me... but I am not far right... perish the thought...*shivers* *laffs*

[Long Duck Dong]

Well you can't tell ANY sexuality just by what gender partner they have. It's just assumed unless told.
M-m & f-f are not partnerships dominated by homosexuals, and m-f ones are not dominated by heterosexuals.
Sexuality is invisible.

exactly... I was wondering how fast somebody would pick up on the fault with the bi visibility aspect....

[æonpax]

bisexuality in itself, is invisible..... you place a gay male and female, hetero male and female... and a bisexual male and female side by side... then get their partners to join them... you can pretty much tell the gay and hetero people..... but there is no way to tell the bisexual person unless they have two partners ( one of each sex ) or they tell you they are bisexual but only have one partner.....
so what are people supposed to do when it comes to bisexuals ?? be mind readers ? assume but be correct about our sexuality every time ??? ...... assumption is the mother of all misunderstandings....
instead of telling people what they are doing wrong... how about we start telling people how they can tell the difference between the sexualities without us telling them what sexuality we are

Your questions are indeed rhetorical as I've seen no straight answers to them. What I was alluding to (can of worms) is the accusation I've faced about bisexuals, mainly coming from lesbians and gay males, being purely a sexually hedonistic lifestyle or culture as opposed to it's own orientation which seeks relationship over pleasure.

I tread lightly here. While there are always exceptions, I've been hard pressed to mount a defense in light of the fact that many bisexuals do look for casual sex. This web site, in part, accommodates that. While this is acceptable to me, to those "purists" in the gay community, or to the uninitiated heterosexual, bisexuality is no more than an excuse to pursue self-indulgent sex.

I don't need to be convinced that this bias or prejudice against bisexuals by both gays and heterosexuals exists, what I'm looking for are ways to refute that...either by research, statistics or logic. If one is to educate those whom are mistaken, there has to be a starting point we all can agree on and that's what I am looking for.

[elian]

Well, much like a straight couple, I would be perfectly happy loving one man if it were the "right" one..I can't believe I'm writing this, but maybe even more than one if the circumstances were right and I trusted both of them deeply. What I would NOT do is go have sex with as many anonymous partners as I could find just for the pleasure of it. That's just not me, and it is a risk that is hard to take in this day and age.

Definitely true that for some people sexuality is invisible.

I went to a local pride picnic they have here annually and they had a group of folks handing out free swag and asking people to fill out a survey. It asked questions about multiple partners and drug use and just assumed that "gay" people must do these things. I filled out the survey, just so they could "see" that not all men are promiscuous sluts strung out on heroin.

Do I detect a little irritation at bisexual men for sleeping around Aeon? Yes, it certainly would be easier if people stuck to some sort of "moral code", but even the religious right who preach about morals and family values can't seem to go without divorce and adultery. That was actually the last defense a PA senator used against passing a bill to specifically make gay marriage illegal in this state. He said, "If you pass this bill, I'm going to sponsor legislation to make DIVORCE illegal since marriage is so sacred." For some reason that curtailed the debate..

[Long Duck Dong]

honestly.... in all the groups that I hear, say that they need to educate, most of them are outspoken and very opinionated.... IE some US politicians, some religious groups... some bisexual groups..... and I used to send my friends here to learn more about being bisexual..... but it got to the point that my friends started questioning the behievour of bisexuals cos of threads telling heteros how they were wrong and selfish if they were not letting their bisexual partners have sex with other people and that the rights of the bisexual come first, in relationships....

the best way to show anybody about what its like to be bisexual, is be yourself.... not try and teach people about bisexuality as a form of being, cos that is like trying to teach heterosexuality as the only way marriage should be cos its sacred and special..... and people see divorce courts, divorce lawyers, adultery, affairs, abusive marriages etc etc......

the way I show people about being bisexual, is by simply being who I am.... showing respect for my friends and not trying to get them into bed, talking with them about who I find attractive and why, not who I want to fuck.....and talking about issues as me and my partner face them, not just about the issues I have..... and people have struggled with the idea that I can be monogamous and faithful to a partner, that people are more than just fuck buddies etc..... the trouble is that I am one of the minority bisexuals, not the majority so I do not try to educate anybody about being bisexual, merely what its like for me, being a person that is diverse and complex.... and bisexual....

[æonpax]

Well, much like a straight couple, I would be perfectly happy loving one man if it were the "right" one..I can't believe I'm writing this, but maybe even more than one if the circumstances were right and I trusted both of them deeply. What I would NOT do is go have sex with as many anonymous partners as I could find just for the pleasure of it. That's just not me, and it is a risk that is hard to take in this day and age.

Definitely true that for some people sexuality is invisible.

I went to a local pride picnic they have here annually and they had a group of folks handing out free swag and asking people to fill out a survey. It asked questions about multiple partners and drug use and just assumed that "gay" people must do these things. I filled out the survey, just so they could "see" that not all men are promiscuous sluts strung out on heroin.

Do I detect a little irritation at bisexual men for sleeping around Aeon? Yes, it certainly would be easier if people stuck to some sort of "moral code", but even the religious right who preach about morals and family values can't seem to go without divorce and adultery. That was actually the last defense a PA senator used against passing a bill to specifically make gay marriage illegal in this state. He said, "If you pass this bill, I'm going to sponsor legislation to make DIVORCE illegal since marriage is so sacred." For some reason that curtailed the debate..

The fact is, there are no facts concerning same gender bisexual couples, specifically those who wish to marry. Drew posted a report on bisexuality and I seriously combed through it but found only incidental data that may refer to this.

I stated I would "tread lightly" on this topic becuase it would open up a can of worms....which is, the promiscuous bisexual. I have no problem with it as I've been there myself. BUT, if I have to describe a factor that confuses both the gay and heterosexual community, it would be promiscuity and hedonism.

I'm not looking for speculation or meaningless dispute. As I stated before, I'm looking for FACTS and/or a strong logical argument I can use to refute the myth that all bisexuals are interested mainly in causal sex as opposed to a long-term emotional commitment that may include marriage, but I am willing to let the dice fall where they may.

As to whether there are more bisexual men than women looking for non-committal causal sex, I don't know with any certitude but I can say from my experience, it appears that it is more of a topic with men than women.

I used to to belong to an all-bisexual female site called "Shy Bi" a few years ago. There were just way to many cliques including the mods themselves which made things appear juvenile and uncompromising, so I left. However this I did learn, there was very little open requests for meets and discussion topics hovered around female heath/emotional issues and as most of them were married to men, their mates. I personally got more than a few private requests from women looking for a single female for their man, but that's not my thing.

[tenni]

... the accusation I've faced about bisexuals, mainly coming from lesbians and gay males, being purely a sexually hedonistic lifestyle or culture as opposed to it's own orientation which seeks relationship over pleasure.

....I've been hard pressed to mount a defense in light of the fact that many bisexuals do look for casual sex. This web site, in part, accommodates that. While this is acceptable to me, to those "purists" in the gay community, or to the uninitiated heterosexual, bisexuality is no more than an excuse to pursue self-indulgent sex.

I don't need to be convinced that this bias or prejudice against bisexuals by both gays and heterosexuals exists, what I'm looking for are ways to refute that...either by research, statistics or logic...r.

"I agree with you, many people are misinformed as to what being gay is and base their judgement on the orientation by constantly referring to sex acts, in the majority of cases, sodomy....the actions of bisexual men, many arguably looking just for casual mano e mano sex, are confused and or branded as being gay, when in fact they are bisexual...."



I am having difficulty connecting the above thoughts to this thread? How are sexual acts not connect to being gay, bisexual or hetero? I am wondering if the wheels are falling off of this thread's concept and issue? It isn't gays and lesbians who are creating policy that same sex acts may not be discussed in the school district?

If you dress it(gay/bi) up in something pretty(of which I have no idea) it is still about same sex activity and for bis opposite sex activity as well. Behaviours that some might connect with these sex acts are just speculative stereotypes as to the sexual attraction.

Bullying and suicides based upon how a student behaves or even states their sexuality as non hetero has little to do with casual sex. Casual sex happens regardless of the sexual orientation of the person. Gays have a reputation for being poly and slutty too ;) Your aquantances and friends are deceiving themselves if they think that all gays/lesbians are only monogamous relation oriented people! I'd just throw that back at these lesbian bigots if I were you...lol :) We can use the research money for more appropriate research about bisexual issues than defending ourselves from lesbian and gay bigots.

Poly beliefs,imo, are more appropriate for bisexuals but not all bisexuals believe that. Poly is not necessarily connected solely to non heteros either. I think that we should defend the right of bisexuals to be poly or non monogomous. We, bisexuals are just loving people. Some of us more loving than others ;) We should not feel guilty and want to defend some bisexual's loving expressions sexually. Its human and monogamy is not the best way to live for some people. This is difficult for hetero Christian fundamentalists to accept. Their real objection though remains that non heteros should not be sexual or exist more bluntly. Don't talk about it in schools. Don't accept it in schools. Kill yourself if you must.

[Gearbox]

and I used to send my friends here to learn more about being bisexual..... but it got to the point that my friends started questioning the behievour of bisexuals cos of threads telling heteros how they were wrong and selfish if they were not letting their bisexual partners have sex with other people and that the rights of the bisexual come first, in relationships....
Some people do get scared at the thought of their partner having rights over their own person. That's not a bisexual issue. It's a monogamist issue. If your friends learned anything about the swings of bisexuality, they might have understood why some bisexuals need both genders sexually, but just the one person emotionally. Some are even monogamous.
Did they post questions in those threads?

[tenni]

"my friends started questioning the behievour of bisexuals cos of threads telling heteros how they were wrong and selfish if they were not letting their bisexual partners have sex with other people and that the rights of the bisexual come first, in relationships...."

Very interesting. I don't think that I've read any bisexual make such a statement? It isn't a matter of right or wrong and selfish.

Regardless of your sexuality, each person has a right to decide who they will have sex with. No one person "owns" another person. Giving, loving partners of bisexuals who have sufficient positive self esteem without possessive attachment issues tend to understand this aspect of love. There are many heterosexual partners on this site who give such love to their bisexual partners for the bisexual's happiness. Gear is correct about the monogamous issue but it is specific to some bisexuals' happiness. Bisexuals are going to post about their happiness and their sexuality on a bisexual site.

Then again, this has nothing to do with suicides in schools and bad policy against same sex loving people.

[Long Duck Dong]

Some people do get scared at the thought of their partner having rights over their own person. That's not a bisexual issue. It's a monogamist issue. If your friends learned anything about the swings of bisexuality, they might have understood why some bisexuals need both genders sexually, but just the one person emotionally. Some are even monogamous.
Did they post questions in those threads?

and the biggest issue that keeps appearing in the forum, is the lack of openness and honesty with partners..... and thats creating issues as a lot of partners are understanding and open to the idea of a bisexual partner, they are not given the chance to show that.......

I am finding the same thing with my friends..... they are fine with the idea of bisexual partners, but past relationships with cheating partners, has made them very wary of having a partner that can not be open and honest with them ( any sexuality )..... and after seeing the thread a while ago where a female member was called biphobic for not wanting to dating bisexuals, after they had had 3 relationships where they were lied to by their bisexual partners and cheated on, I can see why my friends are very wary about being involved with bisexuals...... and yes in that thread, they were told to * get with the program * and let their bisexual partner sleep with other people....

I have no issues with rights over your own body..... its your body.... but a relationship is not a I and me situation, its a US situation and both partners have rights of choice.... a persons rights with their body do not supersede the rights of BOTH people in a relationship and the right of choice of staying in the relationship or not.....regardless of the closed / open relationship aspect

[Annika L]

bisexuality in itself, is invisible..... you place a gay male and female, hetero male and female... and a bisexual male and female side by side... then get their partners to join them... you can pretty much tell the gay and hetero people..... but there is no way to tell the bisexual person unless they have two partners ( one of each sex ) or they tell you they are bisexual but only have one partner.....

This is humorously incorrect.

I submit for your inspection, LDD, 6 individuals: Male#1, Male#2, Male#3, Female#1, Female#2, and Female#3. This group of individuals contains 2 straight people (one male, one female), 2 gay people (one male, one female) and 2 bisexuals (one male, one female).

Now, let's invite their partners to join them:

Male#1's partner is male;
Male#2's partner is male;
Male#3's partner is female;
Female#1's partner is female;
Female#2's partner is male;
Female#3's partner is male.

You claim that you can pretty much tell the gay and hetero people? Go ahead and try.

If you can't decipher the bisexuals, then you can't decipher anyone. We fuck with the *world* (mwahahaha!!)

[Long Duck Dong]

annika, I posted it using the *standard * idea that gay people would have a partner of the same sex, heteros, a partner of the opposite sex.... as that is what most people associate with sexuality..... and that is the argument used in the forum regarding people walking down the road with a same sex partner being seen as gay and not bi......

somehow you are supposed to know what strangers are bisexual and not gay cos thats part of bi visibility..... and if a lot of bisexuals can not do it, how the hell are other people supposed to do it.......

thats basically my question.....

and before tenni comes back in and goes on again about what the hell it has to do with bullying and the thread.... well... assuming sexuality goes hand in hand with bullying of assumed lgbt people

[Gearbox]

and the biggest issue that keeps appearing in the forum, is the lack of openness and honesty with partners..... and thats creating issues as a lot of partners are understanding and open to the idea of a bisexual partner, they are not given the chance to show that.......

I am finding the same thing with my friends..... they are fine with the idea of bisexual partners, but past relationships with cheating partners, has made them very wary of having a partner that can not be open and honest with them ( any sexuality )..... and after seeing the thread a while ago where a female member was called biphobic for not wanting to dating bisexuals, after they had had 3 relationships where they were lied to by their bisexual partners and cheated on, I can see why my friends are very wary about being involved with bisexuals...... and yes in that thread, they were told to * get with the program * and let their bisexual partner sleep with other people....

I have no issues with rights over your own body..... its your body.... but a relationship is not a I and me situation, its a US situation and both partners have rights of choice.... a persons rights with their body do not supersede the rights of BOTH people in a relationship and the right of choice of staying in the relationship or not.....regardless of the closed / open relationship aspect
Your talking about cheaters, not bisexuals. Nobody wants a relationship with a cheater, that's understandable. But to slur ALL bisexuals as cheats&liars is biphobic. That's probably why that lady was called that. Why she'd come here to announce it. is beyond me though.lol

[tenni]

"a persons rights with their body do not supersede the rights of BOTH people in a relationship and the right of choice of staying in the relationship or not.....regardless of the closed / open relationship aspect"

Well, now that the thread has gone off track..lol

I'm sure that women will be happy to read that a person's rights with their body do not supersede the rights of both people in a relationship. If a husband says fuck me now. The woman has no right to say no according to this logic. A person's rights to their body always supersedes any aspects of a relationship regardless of gender. "We" never supersedes "Me" and it never should. That is a good way to get abused and lose your positive self esteem.

[Long Duck Dong]

Your talking about cheaters, not bisexuals. Nobody wants a relationship with a cheater, that's understandable. But to slur ALL bisexuals as cheats&liars is biphobic. That's probably why that lady was called that. Why she'd come here to announce it. is beyond me though.lol

she was not slurring all bisexuals.... she came here for help cos her bisexual partner was lying to her constantly.... so the lady came to the bisexual community for help on how to resolve the issues and save the relationship... or in simple terms, how to stop her partner from constantly lying to her and tell her the truth about what was going on......

surely you remember christobelle the lesbian with the bisexual partner that was constantly lying to her..... christobelle that got called biphobic, christobelle that was told that she should open up the relationship cos her partner was bisexual and that was what was important, not the fact the bisexual partner had lied thru her teeth to christobelle, christobelle that was told that she was selfish cos she was a monogamous natured person that got involved with a bisexual that lied and said they are a lesbian and interested in being monogamous then lied about the cheating and the deceit.......

that is the issues my friends have with bisexuals, not the sexuality... the lies and disrespect and being told that the bisexuals rights come first in a relationship, regardless of the partners thoughts and feelings...... most of my friends want to be equal partners in a relationship... not the partner that the bisexual comes home to after getting their rocks off, and asks whats for dinner ?

have you noticed that many times that bisexuals talk about cheating, one of the first things that come out, is that they have not / will not tell their partners about being bisexual, or work with their partners for a compromise that benefits both partners as much as possible......

most bisexuals want a working relationship with their partners.... but often its the partner that gets the blame when it doesn't happen.... but many partners would perfer that the bisexual talk with them about it so it can be worked on... rather than * play games *......

[RavenEye]

Well LDD, I was thinking about buying a shirt that says "No I'm Bisexual, You're Confused!" So if you really want that visibility just buy a ton of shirts like that! :cool: Although I do want to get some kind of tattoo on my wrist that represents bisexuality but I haven't figured that one out yet...

[Long Duck Dong]

I have visibility, a lot of the people know that I am bisexual.... what they struggle with, is the idea that I am not interested in casual sex or only wanting a open relationship so I can have multiple partners, as that is their understanding of bisexuals and how bisexuals think.....

something that makes people laugh is when I say things like * NO, bisexuals can be monogamous / faithful, committed to relationships etc, so do not say they can't as thats wrong and can be offensive to bisexual people when people say things like that about bisexuals when its not true, they only want to have open relationships so they fuck other people * and yes I say it in a humorous way...

seriously tho, I know a number of bisexuals that used to go to the local LGBT support group, that quit in the end, cos of the harassment and the expections that bisexual means go to bed with anybody and everybody... specially the females, so they came to our group and found that they were accepted totally and not expected to sleep with anybody unless they wanted to

[darkeyes]

Instead of ripping lumps out of each other over you favourite gripes, would it not be better and a tadge more respectful to the memories of those young kids if u sat back, took a breath and debated the subject of the thread...I realise all too well we all get sidetracked on occasion during debates, and I am no saint when it comes to that, but we are now in completely new territory and beginning to ignore, thus trivialise those young people's lives...

[elian]

Sadly Fran, there is nothing to debate in my mind - I think I understand the principle of "tough love", but people need to understand that their actions have consequences. When they are not willing to compromise, or at least hear the other side's viewpoint then tragedies happen.

I will never be willing to acknowledge that the religious right *fully* believes in "sanctity of life" until they acknowledge and deal with problems like gay teen suicides.

I do not think that ex-gay ministries are an appropriate way to deal with the problem because the problem isn't being gay, the problem is the suicides..and the lack of understanding that being "gay" is about who you love, not who you sleep with. God has ALWAYS been in my life, I wouldn't be here if I didn't have faith in a higher, loving power. I can't understand why some Christians have a really hard time believing that. God never rejected me (how can creation not love a part of itself?) but certain people in the church did.

I didn't choose to fall in love with both men and women, but after a long period of time I did choose to accept those feelings instead of reject them..is that what anti-LGBT folks really mean when they call it a "choice' ? That we should choose to deny a part of who we innately are?

I'm sorry if my sexuality makes me invisible but I still reject that idea, the same way that other people reject racial or gender discrimination. I have as much lust in my heart as the next person, that's what makes me human, but utlimately it boils down to love.

I guess we shouldn't be surprised that people make a big deal about how we want to be treated "special", other minority groups have been tolerating criticism of affirmative action programs for years.

I really wish we DIDN'T have to make a big deal about same sex issues, I wish it was as normal as breathing air - either you are or you aren't - but until people stop committing suicide because they feel they have no where else to turn I think we need to speak up.

Again, it's not just "gay" suicides that bother me, but all teens who feel they have no where to turn. I don't mean to "baby' people but there is such a thing as emotional pain.

This country really does have to work on its empathy skills. Makes for a kind of neurotic society when there's all sorts of societal pressure to consume as much as possible individually. Apparently we still haven't learned "balance" successfully.

[darkeyes]

Elian.. being gay or bi isnt about who u love at all... it is about who u are....

[Long Duck Dong]

Instead of ripping lumps out of each other over you favourite gripes, would it not be better and a tadge more respectful to the memories of those young kids if u sat back, took a breath and debated the subject of the thread...I realise all too well we all get sidetracked on occasion during debates, and I am no saint when it comes to that, but we are now in completely new territory and beginning to ignore, thus trivialise those young people's lives...

sure, I could sit here and go poor lgbt kids, bullied until they gave up..... or I could draw upon my own experiences with depression and suicidal tendencies and question what was actually going thru the kids heads at the time....
I have worked with suicidal teenagers over the years and instead of doing the * it all gets better, later * approach, I came at it from the * this is the here and now that needs to be worked thru or there will be no later * approach....

the thing is for a lot of people that have undiagnosed mental illnesses, it doesn't get better later, cos later there is still the same issues that need to be dealt with on a regular basis.... even with a diagnosis, they may get help.... but its still hard going..... so it becomes all too easy for people to fall back on the LGBT kids were bullied until they quit, statements.....

the same thing is going on with many teenagers of many sexualities... we need to stop with the * poor LGBT kids * and start with the * why the fuck are so many kids not getting reached out to when they need it *.... and a lot of that has to do with too many people wanting to stand on the side lines and tell the * ref * how to do their job, rather than actively get involved with the *training * for the *sports field *......

we can bash the hell out of the school system and lay the blame with whoever... but that is not explaining why the same issues are still happening in other schools with support networks..... and the many reason for that, I dare to state, is that we have created a situation where people can not or are not allowed to step in cos its not PC to do so etc etc......

school violence and criminal offending is getting out of hand at a alarming rate.... and spamming the LGBT kids with videos about how it gets better, later... is not dealing with the here and now.... they are dealing with very real issues that may not be getting addressed at all, cos people are too blind to see anything beyond the fact they are LGBT...... and hell we have had enough reports of how LGBT people are struggling with mental health issues at a higher than average rate.... so where is the mental health support for them....... and is there one ???? and is that where ALL of the teen suicide victims being failed.....?????

[darkeyes]

Sometimes, Duckie.. blame and apportioning blame is necessary if we are to change the ethos of anything in order to make it better.. that there is something wrong in this school district appears self evident... and people should be pressing to get to the bottom of what it is... if there is a broader issue involved then it should be dealt with and if blame there is blame should be apportioned and those to blame dealt with in an appropriate manner.. it is likely that there is more to this problem than simply the bullying and suicide of kids who were gay or bisexual... a problem exists and a lot of people want it fixed... so just what is wrong should be properly and independently investigated and all the issues brought out openly in the interests of all the kids in that area and the ethos of the school district changed and measures implemented to eliminate as far as possible, just what the problems are which cause these tragedies... and where there is blame, those responsible should not escape the consequences...

[Long Duck Dong]

yes lay the blame, but without the kids there to tell anybody what happened and why, we can only assume what was going on.... IE lgbt kids committed suicide cos they were bullied..... and that is the issue,.... what other issues were MISSED and not being addressed......

all I am seeing is that people are seeing lgbt kids commit suicide and bullying was involved therefore that must be the issue..... when in fact the issue is that nobody saw the issues going on that were not visible and not caught in time.... so it comes back to what we can see and say that is the issue, lets start a blame and shame issue.....

its not addressing the non lgbt kids that are also committing suicide, its ignoring them... unless we can say that its bullying too.... the common catch phrase..... its always bullying..... never anything else.....

I was bullied at school, until I changed and became a kid that fought back, violently... but for 37 years, nobody diagnosed the dysthimia..... and if that had cost me my life, nobody would have known, they would have blamed the bullying.... but the bullying did not really affect me, as I grew up in abusive home, so I was used to the abuse...... when the dystimia was finally diagnosed, then much of my life made sense finally, and I spent the next couple of years apologizing to people for something that was never diagnosed..... something that had a far greater impact on my life than pretty much anything else.....

yes, play the blame game, find somebody to blame.... but bear in mind, that you are blaming people for something that has happened that may not be the root cause of a issue at all... and you may be blaming the wrong people for the wrong thing..... but if blaming makes you feel good, do it..... cos it never saved the lives of those we have lost cos we were too blind to the fact that not everything is as it seems

[tenni]

"Instead of ripping lumps out of each other over you favourite gripes, would it not be better and a tadge more respectful to the memories of those young kids if u sat back, took a breath and debated the subject of the thread..."

I agree. I wish some posters realized that they do this site little good when they take a thread off topic to their own pet projects. However, should bs just be ignored anymore than the behaviour of this school district? I don't think so. It would be best if we all respect thread topics and stay focused. When a poster takes the thread off topic we should all remind them of their disrespectful actions (intentionally or unintentionally).

Whether the policy and instructions to the teachers to not discuss/interfere when they saw bullying regardless whether it is about sexuality or overweight etc., most school districts and even entire provinces declare "zero tolerance" for bullying actions. This school district is so very much out of step with the rest of our areas that it is bigoted. I don't understand the school districts thinking but then I don't understand why people felt entitled to hang someone based on their skin colour either.

[Gearbox]

she was not slurring all bisexuals.... she came here for help cos her bisexual partner was lying to her constantly.... so the lady came to the bisexual community for help on how to resolve the issues and save the relationship... or in simple terms, how to stop her partner from constantly lying to her and tell her the truth about what was going on......

surely you remember christobelle the lesbian with the bisexual partner that was constantly lying to her..... christobelle that got called biphobic, christobelle that was told that she should open up the relationship cos her partner was bisexual and that was what was important, not the fact the bisexual partner had lied thru her teeth to christobelle, christobelle that was told that she was selfish cos she was a monogamous natured person that got involved with a bisexual that lied and said they are a lesbian and interested in being monogamous then lied about the cheating and the deceit.......

that is the issues my friends have with bisexuals, not the sexuality... the lies and disrespect and being told that the bisexuals rights come first in a relationship, regardless of the partners thoughts and feelings...... most of my friends want to be equal partners in a relationship... not the partner that the bisexual comes home to after getting their rocks off, and asks whats for dinner ?

have you noticed that many times that bisexuals talk about cheating, one of the first things that come out, is that they have not / will not tell their partners about being bisexual, or work with their partners for a compromise that benefits both partners as much as possible......

most bisexuals want a working relationship with their partners.... but often its the partner that gets the blame when it doesn't happen.... but many partners would perfer that the bisexual talk with them about it so it can be worked on... rather than * play games *......
You should go read Christobelle's thread again if that's what you gleamed from it. Watching porn isn't cheating! Not to ANY level headed person IMO, nor are sexual thoughts, as SHE claims.:eek:

Your friends have a monogamist bi as a friend and STILL have issues with bisexuals? Not just some bisexuals? Or just cheaters in general?
If it concerns them so badly that they need equal rights, honesty and respect from their partner, then open relationships are best suited IMO. So I don't see how bisexuality is an issue with those concerns.

I have read VERY little from cheaters on here. It's mostly those who ask for advice on how to come out to their partners I notice. If it was THAT easy, they wouldn't need advice. Talking to partners is always advised, and compromise is advised to the partner. Hopefully that gives a bit of comfort to the partners of bi's who come here, and support for bisexuals too.

[tenni]

"christobelle that got called biphobic"

Uh, she was and is imo but not for what you posted. It may be a good idea to reflect on whether these friends are also biphobic? Reflect on your own possible biphobia? Both seem to have an aversion if not obsession with connecting cheating to bisexuality regardless of the thread topic?

Please stay on topic or start your own thread to troll your views.

[æonpax]

{snip/unsnip}I am having difficulty connecting the above thoughts to this thread?{snip}

That's because I was replying to elian.

[darkeyes]

yes lay the blame, but without the kids there to tell anybody what happened and why, we can only assume what was going on.... IE lgbt kids committed suicide cos they were bullied..... and that is the issue,.... what other issues were MISSED and not being addressed......

all I am seeing is that people are seeing lgbt kids commit suicide and bullying was involved therefore that must be the issue..... when in fact the issue is that nobody saw the issues going on that were not visible and not caught in time.... so it comes back to what we can see and say that is the issue, lets start a blame and shame issue.....

its not addressing the non lgbt kids that are also committing suicide, its ignoring them... unless we can say that its bullying too.... the common catch phrase..... its always bullying..... never anything else.....

I was bullied at school, until I changed and became a kid that fought back, violently... but for 37 years, nobody diagnosed the dysthimia..... and if that had cost me my life, nobody would have known, they would have blamed the bullying.... but the bullying did not really affect me, as I grew up in abusive home, so I was used to the abuse...... when the dystimia was finally diagnosed, then much of my life made sense finally, and I spent the next couple of years apologizing to people for something that was never diagnosed..... something that had a far greater impact on my life than pretty much anything else.....

yes, play the blame game, find somebody to blame.... but bear in mind, that you are blaming people for something that has happened that may not be the root cause of a issue at all... and you may be blaming the wrong people for the wrong thing..... but if blaming makes you feel good, do it..... cos it never saved the lives of those we have lost cos we were too blind to the fact that not everything is as it seems
Read what I said Duckie... I said investigate all the issues... and if there is blame.. responsibility.. apportion it.. but get to the root of the problem and have it fixed...

[æonpax]

Silly notion? *laffs*... from your own words Æon.. I've been accused of just the same, so don't take it too much to heart... I wasnt accusing u but occasionally we all frame things in words in such a way as can be thrown back at us as saying something we didn't... best in such cases to clear up our intentions doncha think? ps.. I know u werent speaking of me... but I am not far right... perish the thought...*shivers* *laffs*

LOL...I got your attention, good. To me, this thread is a no-brainer. The schools were obviously at fault for failing to enforce their own codes and as the article stated, teachers were directly told not to mention "gay" students. Not only was there negligence but there was also complicity on behalf of the school to deny gay students their rights. This is an open/shut case.

At issue, is how much of the communities religious conservatism played up in this. Bachmann's part in this, while making for good political speculation, is incidental.

[darkeyes]

Ya always get me attention babes... an yas rite it is a no brainer thread.. tho some peeps seem 2 think otherwise.. at least as far as they think...

[æonpax]

Ya always get me attention babes... an yas rite it is a no brainer thread.. tho some peeps seem 2 think otherwise.. at least as far as they think...

Well babes, while I can see topics taking certain tangents, why source an article if everyone is going to ignore it?

[darkeyes]

Well babes, while I can see topics taking certain tangents, why source an article if everyone is going to ignore it?

Not quite everyone... but the usual suspects methinks...:kiss:;)

[æonpax]

Not quite everyone... but the usual suspects methinks...:kiss:;)


http://i.imgur.com/iFiJM.jpg

[Long Duck Dong]

You should go read Christobelle's thread again if that's what you gleamed from it. Watching porn isn't cheating! Not to ANY level headed person IMO, nor are sexual thoughts, as SHE claims.:eek: Your friends have a monogamist bi as a friend and STILL have issues with bisexuals? Not just some bisexuals? Or just cheaters in general? If it concerns them so badly that they need equal rights, honesty and respect from their partner, then open relationships are best suited IMO. So I don't see how bisexuality is an issue with those concerns.I have read VERY little from cheaters on here. It's mostly those who ask for advice on how to come out to their partners I notice. If it was THAT easy, they wouldn't need advice. Talking to partners is always advised, and compromise is advised to the partner. Hopefully that gives a bit of comfort to the partners of bi's who come here, and support for bisexuals too.

I was talking with christbelle in mails, trying to help her save her relationship.... something I happen to do a lot of.....and I was not the only one...... and there was more to the issue than the porn... a lot more.......

it got to the point that christbelles partner was finally honest about the fact that she had lied in order to get christbelle as a partner, knowing that christbelle was not interested in a open relationship or with any sexual contact with males.... something that was stated in the forums, and it was interesting to notice that christobelle was still told that she was wrong, she needed to open up the relationship for her partner, regardless of the fact that christobelle was not able to handle the idea of sex with males at all.....

my friends have the same issues with ANY person that lies in relationships, regardless of sexuality, so they have issues with the person, not the sexuality...... but yes they do have issues with the idea that if they get into a relationship with a bisexual, that it would be a unspoken understanding that a bisexual has a automatic right to have other partners....

its something that my friends would like to discuss with their partners and being choices and options, not just expected to say, * yes dear, no dear, 3 bags full dear *.....its all part of being in a relationship... and my friends are known as being very LGBT friendly and open minded.... but also very clear that they want to be equals in a relationship and know what is going on.... the same thing that is endorsed in the forums, the open and honest communication as every relationship needs that.....

christobelle quit the site.... it was made clear to her that she was wrong for not opening up the relationship for her partner.... the partner had lied and manipulated in order to get christobelle to move countries and be in a relationship with this female, then lied repeatedly the full way thru the relationship, but that was generally ignored and the fact that christobelle ended up in a relationship that had and would leave her extremely unhappy, was also ignored.....cos the rights of the bisexual come first......

it was actually a form of bullying christobelle into doing what others wanted, when she reached out to the bisexual community for help and support.... yet people are so vocal about how bullying LGBT is wrong......

interesting how people preach then do not practise

[csrakate]

I was talking with christbelle in mails, trying to help her save her relationship.... something I happen to do a lot of.....and I was not the only one...... and there was more to the issue than the porn... a lot more....... it got to the point that christbelles partner was finally honest about the fact that she had lied in order to get christbelle as a partner, knowing that christbelle was not interested in a open relationship or with any sexual contact with males.... something that was stated in the forums, and it was interesting to notice that christobelle was still told that she was wrong, she needed to open up the relationship for her partner, regardless of the fact that christobelle was not able to have the idea of sex with males at all.....my friends have the same issues with ANY person that lies in relationships, regardless of sexuality, so they have issues with the person, not the sexuality...... but yes they do have issues with the idea that if they get into a relationship with a bisexual, that it would be a unspoken understanding that a bisexual has a automatic right to have other partners.... its something that my friends would like to discuss with their partners and being choices and options, not just expected to say, * yes dear, no dear, 3 bags full dear *.....its all part of being in a relationship... and my friends are known as being very LGBT friendly and open minded.... but also very clear that they want to be equals in a relationship and know what is going on.... the same thing that is endorsed in the forums, the open and honest communication as every relationship needs that.....christobelle quit the site.... it was made clear to her that she was wrong for not opening up the relationship for her partner.... the partner had lied and manipulated in order to get christobelle to move countries and be in a relationship with this female, then lied repeatedly the full way thru the relationship, but that was generally ignored and the fact that christobelle ended up in a relationship that had and would leave her extremely unhappy, was also ignored.....cos the rights of the bisexual come first......it was actually a form of bullying christobelle into doing what others wanted, when she reached out to the bisexual community for help and support.... yet people are so vocal about how bullying LGBT is wrong...... interesting how people preach then do not practise

All I can do is shake my head....I have no words for this.....You are sooooo freaking off topic it astounds me that you even bothered to reply. But...as long as you are going to bring it all up....here goes: You heard HER side of the story, LDD....You heard HER feelings on the matter....you heard HER interpretation of what her partner said.....and YOU automatically assume that her partner was wrong. I also don't recall how this site told her that she was wrong.....Yes..maybe some people told her she was rather rigid...but I don't remember a single post where she was told to go along with her partner and open up her relationship or else. She made a foolish decision to move thousands of miles away to be with someone she didn't really know. THAT is where the culpability lies.....Yes...her partner WAS to blame in being dishonest, but Christobelle made a decision based on lust, love and blind trust. It doesn't make what her partner did right...but the partner isn't totally to blame. I think you demean the issue of teen bullying by trying to use this as an example. GET REAL!!!!

Actually, I think you are guilty of bias, LDD....You always take the other side, whether it's substantiated by fact or not. If you find the people on this site and the way they live their lives so reprehensible, why do you remain?

[BiDaveDtown]

First, I feel kindof bad about horsing around in one of my previous comments in this thread. It is a very serious topic - and so very sad and tragic. You raise at least one good point DD, and the same thought did cross my mind... "How do they know why they committed suicide? If it was because of GLBTQ issues, would they have told anyone? Would they approve of their photos being printed and the suggestion being that they were GLBTQ? How solid is this article?" About the article date though. It may be old news in some circles, but the article does have the date 6-Feb-2012. And it was news to me - probably the original poster too. Anyway, let's all remember how difficult it was being a teenager (GLBT or Questioning or Straight). It really does get better. - Drew :paw: I hope you realize that the creator of the "It gets better" project Dan Savage is highly biphobic, transphobic, and a racist bigot. He started the "It gets better" project not to help GLBT youth but for lots of money, and a reality TV show on MTV since he's a media whore. It gets better is just a bullshit PR campaign, nothing more. Telling kids to put up with bullying until they leave school is not constructive advice. It’s cruel. School boards, school administrators, teachers, etc, need to have zero tolerance policy for bullying. It’s not uncommon for teachers and even some school administrators to bully unpopular kids themselves. That’s where the changes need to be made… The reason “It Gets Better” caught on with politicians and celebrities is because it’s great PR and it requires absolutely NOTHING from them in the way of real action. Those of who have friends from Seattle know that Dan Savage is an opportunistic parasite who will not hesitate to throw you under the bus if you don’t fit into his vision of right wing Log-cabin-lite politics. The It Gets Better campaign does nothing to empower LGBT youth. in fact, we are seeing a whole generation of gay kids make these videos and then kill themselves, while Dan Savage tells them to pull themselves to up by their bootstraps and he profits off the dead by hawking his self-help books. what we need is action and strategy, a battle plan to help gay kids survive, and deal directly with the homophobes (for example, how to file a complaint and lawsuit against your school district) and not snake oil charms like the It Gets Better media sham. Dan is not a good face for the movement. However the media has decided he is. While we argue over the entire matter he cashes anouther check, extracted from the combined misery of every LGBT person who has been abused by society or family. The man makes his money off of our collective misery. If society didn’t heap hell after hell on us there would be no pay check in the gay movement for Dan. If overnight we suddenly gained our rights and every bigot said sorry, the man wouldn’t have a job. He is slime.

[Long Duck Dong]

All I can do is shake my head....I have no words for this.....You are sooooo freaking off topic it astounds me that you even bothered to reply. But...as long as you are going to bring it all up....here goes: You heard HER side of the story, LDD....You heard HER feelings on the matter....you heard HER interpretation of what her partner said.....and YOU automatically assume that her partner was wrong. I also don't recall how this site told her that she was wrong.....Yes..maybe some people told her she was rather rigid...but I don't remember a single post where she was told to go along with her partner and open up her relationship or else. She made a foolish decision to move thousands of miles away to be with someone she didn't really know. THAT is where the culpability lies.....Yes...her partner WAS to blame in being dishonest, but Christobelle made a decision based on lust, love and blind trust. It doesn't make what her partner did right...but the partner isn't totally to blame. I think you demean the issue of teen bullying by trying to use this as an example. GET REAL!!!!

Actually, I think you are guilty of bias, LDD....You always take the other side, whether it's substantiated by fact or not. If you find the people on this site and the way they live their lives so reprehensible, why do you remain?

I actually heard both sides of the story, kate, I was dealing with them via mails.... rather than in the forums... cos my interest was in helping them both resolve the issues in THEIR relationship..... laying the blame is something anybody can do, and many people do it......but I was actively working to help them both via mails... and apparently there was only one other person doing the same thing......

so your remarks are incorrect and very very wrong..... and based about what you assumed, was happening... not what was actually happening.....

[csrakate]

I actually heard both sides of the story, kate, I was dealing with them via mails.... rather than in the forums... cos my interest was in helping them both resolve the issues in THEIR relationship..... laying the blame is something anybody can do, and many people do it......but I was actively working to help them both via mails... and apparently there was only one other person doing the same thing......

so your remarks are incorrect and very very wrong..... and based about what you assumed, was happening... not what was actually happening.....

You just don't get it, LDD.....it really doesn't matter what the actual facts were.....You were comparing the treatment (treatment that you consider to be bullying) that Christobelle received with the bullying that was being reported against teens in order to continue with your "bisexuals are flawed" campaign. Please don't trivialize a true dilemma among our young people today, gay, bi, straight, or trans, with your own rants against what you believe are the moral flaws of some bisexuals. It was out of place and disrespectful.

[drugstore cowboy]

You just don't get it, LDD.....it really doesn't matter what the actual facts were.....You were comparing the treatment (treatment that you consider to be bullying) that Christobelle received with the bullying that was being reported against teens in order to continue with your "bisexuals are flawed" campaign. Please don't trivialize a true dilemma among our young people today, gay, bi, straight, or trans, with your own rants against what you believe are the moral flaws of some bisexuals. It was out of place and disrespectful. Well said! LongDuck frequently is on his "bisexuals are flawed" campaign and has been for awhile here on this site. Christobelle was not bullied at all and this thread is not about Christobelle at all.

[Long Duck Dong]

I do not have any *bisexuals are flawed * campaign... in order for anybody to say that, they would need to show that I think that bisexuals are some how so unhuman as to not be associated with the human race in any way, shape or form...... and I do not care if people are blue, green, multicolored or even shagging the neighbours dog..... a person is a person to me, regardless of sexuality, culture, race etc... its why I would extend a hand to one of the phelps if they were down in the gutter, regardless of how much I may disagree with what they say......

suicide is not anything trivia, I know cos I have lost too many bloody people to suicide and I am sick to death of trying to get help for them and being told that nobody can do anything, but when the person dies, everybody wants to blame somebody for the suicide......

the world is full of do gooders with their good intentions and good ideas on how things should work, and the simple fact is they are not working..... 8-9 ( depending on what newspaper you read ) teens committed suicide, but rather than focus on why they were missed and lost, the emphasis is on why LGBT teens were bullied and who can we blame for it......

I have made mention in the past about the way that we are encouraging teens to come out and how it will get better.... then when things get rough for them, there is no support network to help them..... and that is where WE are failing the teens.... but the teens will tell you, a lot of the bullying is not threats and violence, its peer pressure and a lack of support from the very same people they are supposed to be able to reach out to......

teens are becoming caught in a crossfire, the pressure to come out v's the pressure to stay in the closet, the need to be who they are vs the need to know who they are, and constantly being told that they should be able to express themselves but being told how expressing themselves, is wrong...... and the whole time the fact that some of them are dealing with more than just sexuality issues, is getting ignored.....

I have risked my own relationship a number of times, in order to reach out to people.... you want to sit in a forum and say I am wrong, go for it..... but I am one of the ones that are working my ass off to save people.... 27 agencies in NZ are set up to help teens at risk and they are constantly failing the teens..... but they all talk about who is to blame and why..... its the people like me that are actively doing the work that needs to be done.... so if that makes me wrong, fine.... at least I am saving lives, not talking about doing it........

[RavenEye]

THANK YOU BiDave!!! I've always wondered what the point of the It Get's Better project was. How do they know it gets better? It certainly hasn't for me. And what of these straight celebrities? How do they of that something that gets better when they aren't even part of the group?! It pisses me off! I saw Jamie's (the boy who committed suicide that GaGa adored) it get's better video, and the top comments were (paraphrasing): "Yeah it got better for him, he died and got out of this hell. Lucky!" After I read that my jaw dropped. Of course it wasn't that long ago that I had that same mentality as these kids. It Gets Better frustrates me to no end!

[tenni]

I agree with BiDave about the zero tolerance approach being so much better than this school district's approach of not permitting their teachers to even discuss sexuality or ignore the bullying tactics. I know that there are "flaws" in the application of zero tolerance and deviant manipulative students seem to find ways around or make it difficult to determine who is involved in bullying(cyber bullying being one aspect) but zero tolerance of bullying is a good approach as a philosophy.

darkeyes How does your school system deal with bullying?

[darkeyes]

Tenni..each school is expected to have an anti bullying policy which covers all aspects of bullying.. some schools have very good policies but very weak managements and consequently what is a very good policy isnt actually effective.. often schools hide bullying by denying it occurs and this is a big bug bear with me.. in some schools it is observed but not dealt with adequately or even considered bullying.. it is called simply "a fracas" or a "a little squabble".. even within schools which are hot on bullying some teachers undermine what is a good mangament practice by ignoring it also... I have had several run ins with colleagues about this.. my own school, where it is identified deal with it very well within the context of the school policy and even occasionally outwith that context. Kids are involved in discussions about bullying and in fact the local authority is presently trialling a bullying commission where children are actually members on that commison together with teachers councillors and education officials in an effort to make anti bullying policies much more effective and child responsive within the region.. I think it is due to report at the end of this year..

The policy as it stands does cater for sexual bullying of any kind and there have been instances of bullying of kids because of their sexuality or more often because of their assumed sexuality... it has been reasonably effective yet is imperfect and still needs working on.. in the end it needs both schools and parents together with children working together in cooperation to make it more so.. no policy will ever be 100% effective but it is in everynes interests to make it more so and that is what we are working towards and reviewing things all the time... there is no likelihood of developing the problems of the American school district because we do not have the kind of political machines and religious strife that they do and we have law on our side which would not allow it.

For info the following is my own schools anti bullying policy and is fairly standard as far as I know. Some schools have weaker and some stronger and more assertive policies but ours is not the worst of its kind.. but in th end we need commitment form all coincerned to mke it work and we do recognise that it is children's lives and futures we deal with... and they are the most important people around in schools;.. without them we wouldnt have a job;

Statement of intent
We will aim to provide a caring, friendly and safe environment for all of our students so they may learn in a relaxed and secure atmosphere. Bullying of any kind is unacceptable in our school. If bullying does occur, all pupils should be able to tell someone and know that incidents will be dealt with promptly and effectively.
What is bullying
?
Bullying is the repeated use of aggression with the intention of hurting another person. Bullying results in pain and distress to the victim.
Bullying can be: Physical – pushing, kicking, hitting, slapping, punching, spitting or any use of violence
Verbal – name-calling, sarcasm, spreading rumours, teasing
Emotional – being unfriendly, excluding, tormenting, name calling
Racist – racial taunts, graffiti, gestures
Sexual – unwanted physical contact, inappropriate comments of a sexual nature
Objectives of this policy Everybody in the school including teaching and non-teaching staff, students and parents should have an understanding of what bullying is
Everybody in the school including teaching and non-teaching staff, students and parents should know what the school policy is on bullying, and follow it when bullying is reported
Everybody in the school and parents should have access to a paper copy (on request) or electronic copy of the school anti-bullying policy (from school website)
As a school we should take bullying seriously. All reported incidents of bullying should be dealt with fully.
The school will record all incidents of bullying including what was done about it
Bullying should not be tolerated by anyone
Steps that may be taken Report bullying incidents to S6 buddies, staff, guidance teacher or head teacher
All incidents of bullying should be recorded by staff members
In serious cases parents must be informed and will be asked to come to a meeting in school to discuss the problem
If necessary and appropriate, police will be consulted
The bullying behaviour or threats of bullying must be investigated and the bullying stopped quickly
Attempts will be made to help the bully change their behaviour and understand what they are doing
The person being bullied should be asked what they want to be done about it
Where appropriate a restorative meeting will be encouraged
Outcomes The bully may be asked to genuinely apologise
In serious cases, exclusion will be considered
If possible, the students will be reconciled
After the incident has been investigated and dealt with, each case will be monitored to ensure that repeated bullying does not take place
The bullied person should be offered ‘optional’ skills to help them deal with future incidents of bullying
The bully should be offered skills training to help them change their behaviour
Prevention
We will create our own anti-bullying policy within the school and review it regularly. Students and staff will be encouraged to outline methods which will help reduce incidents of bullying within our school and create a positive and safe learning environment. This may include: Writing up a set of rules for the school
Encouraging the use of simple behaviour contracts
Teaching age appropriate lessons in PSE
Offering circle time opportunities for bullies and the victims of bullying

[tenni]

Thanks darkeyes
I can see some very good intentions in what you submitted. The application may be difficult if there are not sufficient resources to make it work. The bully that is acting out intentionally repeatedly will be able to work the system more likely than not. I noticed a statement about "exclusion" will be used. Will you expand on that aspect?

The "genuine" apology is another difficult aspect to have happen at times. I agree that any policy about bullying does require parental involvement. If the parents do not have a good relationship with the child or systemic institutions, it becomes extremely difficult to get bullying policies to work.

[darkeyes]

Thanks darkeyes
I can see some very good intentions in what you submitted. The application may be difficult if there are not sufficient resources to make it work. The bully that is acting out intentionally repeatedly will be able to work the system more likely than not. I noticed a statement about "exclusion" will be used. Will you expand on that aspect?

The "genuine" apology is another difficult aspect to have happen at times. I agree that any policy about bullying does require parental involvement. If the parents do not have a good relationship with the child or systemic institutions, it becomes extremely difficult to get bullying policies to work.

Exclusion is either permanent or temporary.. a bully or any other child found to have been a naughty boy or girl may be excluded permanently or for a finite period of time.. in short.. one you may know as expulsion, the other, suspension from school. I am never happy about permanent exclusion because all that does is move the problem to another school, or sometimes some other form of education such as at home.... the child has by law to be educated until he or she is 16.. but most of all by excluding a child permanently it is the ultimate acceptance of failure by a school and then it is we who have failed the child... he or she may have let himself down, but it is we as educators and his parents who bear the brunt of responibility for that failure... all too often schools exclude children on a permanent basis just to get rid of a problem elsewhere for reasons which have nothing to do with concern for children and all to do with a schools own shortcomings..

[tenni]

I understand your position. I partially agree. It becomes rather complex and difficult in some cases. At some point, if bullying continues repetitively the school system has to weigh the benefit of all the students compared to the individual who is bullying. The tone of the school can be affected seriously when idealistic policy is not backed up with suitable resources. There needs to be a sense of safety within the school so that learning may happen imo.

Does your school (or system) have strategies to deal with the use of social media as a tool to bully? That is different than bullying behaviour within the school building but may impact students and the school.

[æonpax]

Sometimes, Duckie.. blame and apportioning blame is necessary if we are to change the ethos of anything in order to make it better.. that there is something wrong in this school district appears self evident... and people should be pressing to get to the bottom of what it is... if there is a broader issue involved then it should be dealt with and if blame there is blame should be apportioned and those to blame dealt with in an appropriate manner.. it is likely that there is more to this problem than simply the bullying and suicide of kids who were gay or bisexual... a problem exists and a lot of people want it fixed... so just what is wrong should be properly and independently investigated and all the issues brought out openly in the interests of all the kids in that area and the ethos of the school district changed and measures implemented to eliminate as far as possible, just what the problems are which cause these tragedies... and where there is blame, those responsible should not escape the consequences...


Fran,

What I've been reading here is basically a lot of second-guessing and speculation about these tragic suicides, after the fact. One fact totally ignored here is that the greatest majority of school districts in the US have active prevention and intervention programs and have ZERO suicides of gay students due to in-school harassment. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_among_LGBT_youth What makes this news article alarming is NINE suicides by gay students, at the same school and in a conservative voting district.

The methods of prevention and intervention involving all kids of harassment were already in place in most US schools by the mid to late 90's. When I was in high school, in the late 90's, zero tolerance for harassment was part of the yearly student orientation and and announced at least weekly in homeroom. I'm pretty positive that the methods to intervention and prevention are universal throughout the US. While there is a spike in the suicide and attempts at suicide in the US especially among gay students, such a thing can be traced to the rise in fundamentalist Christianity as opposed to any particular method used.

[darkeyes]

I understand your position. I partially agree. It becomes rather complex and difficult in some cases. At some point, if bullying continues repetitively the school system has to weigh the benefit of all the students compared to the individual who is bullying. The tone of the school can be affected seriously when idealistic policy is not backed up with suitable resources. There needs to be a sense of safety within the school so that learning may happen imo.

Does your school (or system) have strategies to deal with the use of social media as a tool to bully? That is different than bullying behaviour within the school building but may impact students and the school.

I am not saying that no child should ever be excluded permanently.. I am saying that before he or she is everything possible must be done to try and get to the root of the problem and fix it. Far too often schools bail out too early and exclude a child on a permanent basis.. but at the end of the day if all else has failed sometimes a school will have no option especially if the saetey of staff or students is in question or for the good order of the school. In the end the interests of the education of the vast majority of students is what is important... resources are always a problem especially so in times of economic restraint but so far at least this area does not seem to have been too badly affected although schools are going through some period of staff cutting which does not help..

Regarding cyber bullying this is an area which is backed by criminal law but where kids are so bullied schools and parents do discuss plans of action to try and end it. Bullying off school premises is not considered school interest unless it involves two students and the bullying goes on both within and without school grounds.. most cyber bullying exists well away from school property unless school equipment is used for receipt or transmission of bullying and threatening messages or a child is caught sending or receiving messages on his or her own phone. These being bona fide serious crimes it is common for the police to become involved I believe but tbh cyber bullying has not so far been a problem where I work so it is an area I have little experience of...as with all forms of bullying I have no doubt that what we do see we only see is but the tip of the iceberg. It is an area that we still need to develop proper and more clearly thought out strategies but as yet we are grappling a little in the dark. The advantage of cyber bullying of course from our point of view is that there is concrete evidence to work with on the likes of facebook or in emails and phone picture and text messages.. the question then is are we or some other agency ie the police the appropriate people to deal with it..

[tenni]

Well articulated darkeyes. Thanks. The problem of one student bullying via social media another student can get devious I suspect. The way some of the little bugger's think they may involve kids from other schools to bully kids in their own school. Also fake accounts etc. The point being as I 'm sure that you are aware, some kids who bully are devious...lol Yet, many do not understand the consequences of their bullying. The point where you think that the school is giving up too soon and expell versus what your head teacher thinks is probably a bone of contention.;) I can just see you "discussing it" :)

[darkeyes]

Fran,

What I've been reading here is basically a lot of second-guessing and speculation about these tragic suicides, after the fact. One fact totally ignored here is that the greatest majority of school districts in the US have active prevention and intervention programs and have ZERO suicides of gay students due to in-school harassment. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_among_LGBT_youth What makes this news article alarming is NINE suicides by gay students, at the same school and in a conservative voting district.

The methods of prevention and intervention involving all kids of harassment were already in place in most US schools by the mid to late 90's. When I was in high school, in the late 90's, zero tolerance for harassment was part of the yearly student orientation and and announced at least weekly in homeroom. I'm pretty positive that the methods to intervention and prevention are universal throughout the US. While there is a spike in the suicide and attempts at suicide in the US especially among gay students, such a thing can be traced to the rise in fundamentalist Christianity as opposed to any particular method used.

I wont argue wivya Æon.. that something in the garden is not rosy seems unarguable.. and it seems to involve lgb kids and a lack of compassion for them (and that is me giving those responsible the benefit of the doubt).. what we mustnt also forget is that there has been a rash of failed suicide attempts also which makes things worse... if what was happening or seems to have been happening over there happened in this country those responsible for school policy and running the school would most likely have been suspended or worse pdq and the good chance school taken away temporarily from District (in our case local authority) control and a new broom zoomed in to clear up the mess operating under national guidelines while investigators were sent in to ascertain wtf had been going on and report and recommend how things could be made better.. down south it would probably be done even quicker...

[æonpax]

I wont argue wivya Æon.. that something in the garden is not rosy seems unarguable.. and it seems to involve lgb kids and a lack of compassion for them (and that is me giving those responsible the benefit of the doubt).. what we mustnt also forget is that there has been a rash of failed suicide attempts also which makes things worse... if what was happening or seems to have been happening over there happened in this country those responsible for school policy and running the school would most likely have been suspended or worse pdq and the good chance school taken away temporarily from District (in our case local authority) control and a new broom zoomed in to clear up the mess operating under national guidelines while investigators were sent in to ascertain wtf had been going on and report and recommend how things could be made better.. down south it would probably be done even quicker...

Since we are talking about "bullying", this news item is related;


1 dead, 4 wounded in Ohio high school shooting - http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hztXIBuN1ZWUvDZBE7Pq41lejdLw?docId=2c15575fa 3a34a4a91bd90b0dc0eaf44

While there seems to be disagreement as to whether this student was bullied, it is a sober reminder that programs can only do so much and one just cannot control the movements and lives of people to prevent tragedies such as this.

[darkeyes]

Well articulated darkeyes. Thanks. The problem of one student bullying via social media another student can get devious I suspect. The way some of the little bugger's think they may involve kids from other schools to bully kids in their own school. Also fake accounts etc. The point being as I 'm sure that you are aware, some kids who bully are devious...lol Yet, many do not understand the consequences of their bullying. The point where you think that the school is giving up too soon and expell versus what your head teacher thinks is probably a bone of contention.;) I can just see you "discussing it" :)

While we have been discussing bullying at length, Tenni, with a few distractions along the way... what appears to have been and is going down over there seems to be something beyond bullying does it not?

[elian]

What can I really tell you about bullying? It made my life hell growing up, but I didn't whip out a gun and start blasting people away (quite to the contrary, I internalized a lot of that garbage) - there are no easy answers..to take care of each individual child's emotional needs requires individual attention. Or well, at least to involve all of them in a small group where they can contribute and feel worthy.

For the record, if I had heard some of the "It gets better" messages when *I* was growing up, maybe it wouldn't have sucked quite so much.

[RavenEye]

It seems that schools only seem to enforce anti-bullying policies when a student dies. Well except for that place down in Texas. What a sad world we live in.

[Long Duck Dong]

Since we are talking about "bullying", this news item is related;


1 dead, 4 wounded in Ohio high school shooting - http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hztXIBuN1ZWUvDZBE7Pq41lejdLw?docId=2c15575fa 3a34a4a91bd90b0dc0eaf44

While there seems to be disagreement as to whether this student was bullied, it is a sober reminder that programs can only do so much and one just cannot control the movements and lives of people to prevent tragedies such as this.


exactly!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[darkeyes]

exactly!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Unnecessary and a tadge supercilious, Duckie...

[elian]

Well, in a sense that is true, ultimately the responsibility for the student's life lies with that student. A person doesn't change unless they want to. Having said that, what a person experiences in community can have either a positive or negative impact on their life. I would never advocate shooting anyone as a solution to a problem, but it does bring home the point for people that would otherwise not know, that physical, emotional and spiritual violence ARE real and they are all interrelated.

I heard a quote this Sunday from the universalist minister John Murray - He got kicked out of England for preaching the heretical idea that ALL people deserve to go to heaven, not just a certain elect few who God obviously favored because they were blessed in this life with power and prestige.

"You may possess only a small light, but uncover it, let it shine, use it in order to bring more light and understanding to the hearts and minds of men and women. Give them not Hell, but hope and courage. Do not push them deeper into despair, but preach the kindness and everlasting love of God."

I think the message speaks to self worth, that all people fail but are worthy of a second chance (or third, or fourth). Apparently some people are not hearing the message. What these guys REALLY believed in was salvation by character, that it doesn't matter what you believe, but rather what you do with your life.

I hope children who are hurting can feed their minds and spirits as well as their stomachs. Growing up can be awkward until you figure out who you really are. I pray that someone in their lives will take a genuine interest in their lives, take time to show them some compassion and some discipline - some alternatives to the violence they see - so they can grow up to WHOLE, healthy strong individuals, who also feel a part of the community.

Nice words eh? I know..doesn't really do much for the immediate problem.

[Long Duck Dong]

Unnecessary and a tadge supercilious, Duckie...

what ??? for me to agree with aeon, about how programs can only do so much for people and one just can not control the movements and lives of people in order to prevent tragedies like this ??????

I said the same thing earlier in the thread myself so I was agreeing with aeon......

not sure why you felt the need to try and pull me up, but it confirms what I have also said earlier in the thread... about people being quick to point fingers and lay blame without making sure of their facts.... and that was also proven by the way that people went after me about christobelle...... NEWSFLASH, there is no member called christobelle.... but that did not stop people going after me over the issue and making statements about the non existent person.....

[darkeyes]

Maybe had u not raised the subject of Christobelle in the first place u could have saved yourself a lot of stress, Duckie...

[tenni]

I've read through LDD's posts. Many variable things were posted but not really making the same statement as

"While there seems to be disagreement as to whether this student was bullied, it is a sober reminder that programs can only do so much and one just cannot control the movements and lives of people to prevent tragedies such as this."


In this above statement a point is being made that the killer may have been bullied (unproven yet). The person then instead of killing himself (suicide) took a weapon and killed other students. Reference is made that schools with bullying programmes (positive?) can only do so much to prevent tragedy. In the OP school district their policy is hardly positive programming but is ignoring present approaches to bullying and preventing bullying of GLBT people. At no point did I read in any of the posts by LDD that a bullied student might kill other students. It seems to be an ongoing communication issue for LDD while prostetiatizing with ramblings often off tangent posts. Proclaiming victimhood or faultless savant saviour is more of a common theme. The closest post imo that LDD makes to the above post is post 51. It doesn't make the slightest reference to a bullied GLB student becoming a killer of the other students. What does happen in a continuous troll manner is that threads are diverted from the OP premise and the thread becomes focused on "me and my opinions on life" as in LDD.

LDD's posts
post 13 "I keep coming back to the fact that its not only LGBT students that are committing suicide but every time its claimed that bullying is the reason for it...but bullying is not the only reason that people commit suicide... there is many other reasons and we need to think about that before we point fingers and make accusations"
post 16 "how can we stop the bullies when we are empowering them, cos we blame the school for the bullies, not the bullies themselves.. and in a sense, we are becoming the very bullies we decry when we * attack * people as biphobics, selfish, inconsiderate, insensitive, uncaring etc etc ( our own partners ) and we try to * bully * them into giving in to us......."
post 28 "bisexuality in itself, is invisible...."
post 32 & 85 "exactly..."
post 35 "honestly.... in all the groups that I hear, say that they need to educate, ...:
post 40 "a persons rights with their body do not supersede the rights of BOTH people in a relationship"
post 42 "somehow you are supposed to know what strangers are bisexual and not gay cos thats part of bi visibility..... and if a lot of bisexuals can not do it, how the hell are other people supposed to do it......."
post 45 "that is the issues my friends have with bisexuals, not the sexuality... the lies and disrespect and being told that the bisexuals rights come first in a relationship,
post 47 "I have visibility, a lot of the people know that I am bisexual...
post 51 "we can bash the hell out of the school system and lay the blame with whoever... but that is not explaining why the same issues are still happening in other schools with support networks..... and the many reason for that, I dare to state, is that we have created a situation where people can not or are not allowed to step in cos its not PC to do so etc etc......".
post 53 "yes, play the blame game, find somebody to blame.... but bear in mind, that you are blaming people for something that has happened that may not be the root cause of a issue at all... and you may be blaming the wrong people for the wrong thing..... but if blaming makes you feel good, do it..... cos it never saved the lives of those we have lost cos we were too blind to the fact that not everything is as it seems
post 64 "it was actually a form of bullying christobelle into doing what others wanted, when she reached out to the bisexual community for help and support.... yet people are so vocal about how bullying LGBT is wrong......
interesting how people preach then do not practise
post 67 "laying the blame is something anybody can do, and many people do it......but I was actively working to help them both via mails... and apparently there was only one other person doing the same thing......
post 70 "I have made mention in the past about the way that we are encouraging teens to come out and how it will get better.... then when things get rough for them, there is no support network to help them..... and that is where WE are failing the teens.... but the teens will tell you, a lot of the bullying is not threats and violence, its peer pressure and a lack of support from the very same people they are supposed to be able to reach out to......

[csrakate]

what ??? for me to agree with aeon, about how programs can only do so much for people and one just can not control the movements and lives of people in order to prevent tragedies like this ??????

I said the same thing earlier in the thread myself so I was agreeing with aeon......

not sure why you felt the need to try and pull me up, but it confirms what I have also said earlier in the thread... about people being quick to point fingers and lay blame without making sure of their facts.... and that was also proven by the way that people went after me about christobelle...... NEWSFLASH, there is no member called christobelle.... but that did not stop people going after me over the issue and making statements about the non existent person.....

Just what do you mean by this LDD? What do you mean by calling her non-existent when you claim to have spoken to her and gave her help?

[darkeyes]

Have been poindering exactly mesel...now just what are we to make of Duckie's post.. a little while ago, we have had a thread started by a member called Christobelle.. quite rancourous it got too and did create a fair bit of division on site.. and now we have this thread..where Duckie raises the issue of Christobelle in connection with... well.. in connection with.. well.. something...am not convinced the issue of the thread.. criticised for distraction and for us knowing but one side of Christobelle's story we are the told by Duckie that he has been in contact with both Christobelle and her gf.. and he has been helping them...he has had both sides of the story... slowly, but surely we return to the subject matter of the thread... in agitated response to me calling him supercillious he rants a little and then tells us in a big bold NEWSFLASH that there is no such member as "Christobelle" and berates certain members for "going after" him and making "statements about the non-existent person"...

I think the actions of Duckie merit some explanation... not least because the "Christobelle" issue is one he first raised in connection with this thread... I think it a bit rich of him to raise this case, or "case" in connection with this thread and then rant about people "going after" him when (if) this person or "person" has been used by him to make so much of his arguments such as they were.. especially since we also have the original thread from "Christobelle" where she goes on about her gf being a naughty girl ad infinitum.. he tells us Christobelle was right in what she claimed...gotten from the horses mouth (the gf).. well her keyboard...now we are told she does not exist... there is a real credibility issue here and Duckie had better realise it... if she did not exist, did we imagine her? Mass illusion... interesting.. but no.. if she does not exist just who was this "Christobelle"? Someone posted the original thread... what are we missing? Are we going potty? Has Duckie been telling us Porky Pies? It seems so on face value.. either he dealt with Christobelle and her gf or he didn't. If he did we must assume her existence.. if he did not them we must assume he has been fibbing in his claim that there is no such person.. there is a fib somewhere.. where and why is the question...

.. it all seems to be a very devious game... so devious no one knows what to think... just how devious and what the game is, come on. Duckie, give us a clue willya? Just what devious game arya playing here? Because unless you can and make it good, any credibility you have or think you have disappears up ur own backside in a puff of smoke...

[elian]

with regard to post 70 - although I certainly advocate "It gets better" I don't actively encourage teens to come out, that's an individual decision they they need to judge for themselves because every person's circumstances are different. Some of them are in accepting families, or have accepting friends while others might be kicked out on the street with no place to go.

[Long Duck Dong]

Maybe had u not raised the subject of Christobelle in the first place u could have saved yourself a lot of stress, Duckie...

I was proving a point.... how people are quick to go after somebody / something, without making sure of the facts.... its the same way that bullies can act in the school ground... they go after a person cos of what they assume to be correct, doesn't matter if it is or not.......

that is why I have been saying, we need to check out more about the situation before we point fingers.... as the original article differs to other articles I have read..... but it seems that if anything happens with LGBT, its automatically the system that fails and the school is wrong, therefore we blame them and go after the person/s responsible..... the trouble is we still have no real idea why ANY of the teens committed suicide.....

that is the heart of the matter for me.... we have teens taking their lives, WHY ? we can blame a faulty school system and fix it, but if the teens took their lives for other reasons than the faulty school system, then we have missed the reason why the teens took their own lives..... and that does concern me, as it means that more lives could be lost..... but in saying that, the same issue exists in NZ as well, and the reasoning that some of the teens have given, point more towards a inability to cope with issues, more than bullying......

as for the member christobelle, the only thing I changed, was the name.... the person was a real member, that did quit the site cos of some of the accusations and statements made at them by members of a community that they turned to for support and help in order to save their relationship...... the last I know is that the relationship has been saved, but at a high price.....

[elian]

Well, I have been following the Dharun Ravi case in NJ LDD and I do have to admit that the defendants' argument of "inexperienced, stupid - but not malicious" teen made me think twice for a second.

Unfortunately the only person who knows for sure is now gone, THAT's the trouble with suicide - if only we could've reached out. And even if what the defense says is true, does that mean that Ravi gets charged or convicted of involuntary manslaughter anyway? Even if he didn't have malicious intent, his indirect actions may have caused Tyler Clementi to panic or be depressed enough to kill himself.

People can do really unexpected things when their value systems are violated. Once in a dream I had a man who didn't want to face the idea that he had gay tendencies pull out a gun and shoot me, because I guess I reminded him of something he didn't want to confront. I just kept on calmly talking about it to him, "I can't believe you just shot me." ... I think it surprised him that I wasn't going away. at least it was in a dream, but the prinicple is the same.

[æonpax]

{snipped for brevity}

1) Christobelle has absolutely nothing to do with this topic or article. It's a deliberate derail as you suggested.

2) In time, the facts to come out


* The kids were gay or perceived gay.
* This happened over a two year period
* The Minnesota State public health officials have labeled the area a "suicide contagion area".The policy was changed to require school staff to remain neutral on issues of homosexuality if they should come up in class, a change that critics said fostered confusion among teachers and contributed to their inability to address bullying and harassment.
* The anti-gay climate in the schools in Bachmann's district has been so extreme that it has attracted the attention of the Justice Department and the Department of Education's Office of Civil Rights, which are both investigating allegations of anti-gay bullying. The Southern Poverty Law Center has also been on the ground investigating discrimination against gay students.
* Michelle is known for her virulent anti-gay stance.
* Michelle Bachmann has remained silent on this issue.
* Michelle Bachmann is an Evangelical Christian who's constitutions have shown overt anti-gay leanings.
Sources -
http://motherjones.com/politics/2011/07/michele-bachmann-teen-suicide
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/07/26/michele-bachmann-silent-o_n_910040.html
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/one-towns-war-on-gay-teens-20120202

[Long Duck Dong]

Just what do you mean by this LDD? What do you mean by calling her non-existent when you claim to have spoken to her and gave her help?

exactly what I said...there is no member called christobelle..... however there was a female member with a similar name and the issue covered 3 threads NOT 1 and yes the person quit the site cos of the response they received from some members and yes I did talk with them via email in order to try and help save their relationship........ my point was simple.... facts and truth do not matter as long as people think they are right...


its the same thing with the OP, there was not one school, there was a school district of more than 33+ schools, there was 8-9 students depending on what article you read, some / all of them were lgbt and out / assumed to be lgbt etc.... so we really do not know the full story, but the first point of agenda was to blame the school and start rubbishing michelle bachman cos she went to the school as a teenager....... which is proving absolutely nothing....

sure the school system can do with some work.... but the fact remains, 8-9 teenagers died..... could have it been prevented ? and where did society ( parents / friends / school etc ) fail them and did they ?...and was it possible to save any of the students ?...... regardless of sexuality... cos its somebodies son, daughter, niece, nephew, aunt, uncle, bother, sister, cousin etc that died.....

[Long Duck Dong]

Well, I have been following the Dharun Ravi case in NJ LDD and I do have to admit that the defendants' argument of "inexperienced, stupid - but not malicious" teen made me think twice for a second.

Unfortunately the only person who knows for sure is now gone, THAT's the trouble with suicide - if only we could've reached out. And even if what the defense says is true, does that mean that Ravi gets charged or convicted of involuntary manslaughter anyway? Even if he didn't have malicious intent, his indirect actions may have caused Tyler Clementi to panic or be depressed enough to kill himself.

People can do really unexpected things when their value systems are violated. Once in a dream I had a man who didn't want to face the idea that he had gay tendencies pull out a gun and shoot me, because I guess I reminded him of something he didn't want to confront. I just kept on calmly talking about it to him, "I can't believe you just shot me." ... I think it surprised him that I wasn't going away. at least it was in a dream, but the prinicple is the same.

I will let the jury decide his fate...... cos as you say, the truth may never be known as the only person that can tell their side, is silent...... so we can only assume what happened and why......

[csrakate]

exactly what I said...there is no member called christobelle..... however there was a female member with a similar name and the issue covered 3 threads NOT 1 and yes the person quit the site cos of the response they received from some members and yes I did talk with them via email in order to try and help save their relationship........ my point was simple.... facts and truth do not matter as long as people think they are right




Nice try but I don't buy your explanation. I think you were correct the first time when you said that Christobelle/Christelle was "non-existent". I'm beginning to believe that the original Christelle thread was a contrived effort created by someone who had a point to make regarding bisexuals being perceived as self serving hedonists who are only interested in their own sexual gratification. Unfortunately, you attempted to use that same thread to accuse members of this site of bullying in an effort to prove your belief that bisexuals cry "foul" when they are bullied when you believe they are guilty of bullying as well. It was an atrocious attempt to derail this thread. I would say more about how shameful it is to use deceit to manipulate a forum but I think we need to allow this thread to return to the subject at hand.

[darkeyes]

The name doesnt matter.. cant u see that? Christobelle or Christelle... everyone knew who u meant and u have twisted and turned for purposes of your own... it is a trick worthy of a politician.. worthy of a Ricky Santorum... it has proven nothing except that this thread has been side tracked and derailed by a trick in a determined and unscrupulous effort to discredit others and their aguments and it has failed miserably.. while u concentrate on acting in such a manner and rebuilding what little credibility you have left allow others too concentrate on debating the issue of what is important... just what the truth is of Minnesota and the deaths and attempted suicides of a whole lot of young kids within an education system...

[elian]

Not to defend what, if anything LDD did, but I picked up on half a statement made by Aeon that sort of made mention of the hedonistic tendencies of bisexuals as a complicating factor...my point wasn't to find fault with that - I just wanted to point out that straight people are capable of "sinning" just as much in that regard..the Jerry Springer show gets very boring with one adultery after another...

[DuckiesDarling]

You know actually I'm kind of amused, three people made the same statement about how do we know for sure they committed suicide because they were bullied because they were LGBT... Three.. Me, Drew and LDD. Yet most of you said nothing to me or Drew but you went after LDD with both barrels loaded. Amazing and kinda proves the point about how any group can turn into bullies, now doesn't it?

[csrakate]

N
You know actually I'm kind of amused, three people made the same statement about how do we know for sure they committed suicide because they were bullied because they were LGBT... Three.. Me, Drew and LDD. Yet most of you said nothing to me or Drew but you went after LDD with both barrels loaded. Amazing and kinda proves the point about how any group can turn into bullies, now doesn't it?


Apparently a person can be called a bully because they question the tactics another poster used in an attempt to prove his argument. I guess you don't get the gist of what we have said either. Neither you nor Drew went to absurd lengths to state your argument, you simply presented yours in a manner befitting a proper debate. LDD, on the other hand, not only used the very weak analogy of the Christelle/Christobelle thread, he twisted words and did some serious shuffling which culminated with his juvenile declaration that this person was "non-existent" when the validity of his argument was questioned. Don't try to garner sympathy for him because he got caught in a lie. Don't you dare play the bully card in order to defend him. His continued rantings did him in...his inability to debate fairly caused him to receive our comments. I guess for the two of you, the only defense you have is a mighty offense....and let me be the first to say that I am disappointed that you deemed it necessary to defend him by offending us.

This is a very serious thread and a very serious problem among our young people today. If you can't help the problem, by all means step back and allow the rest of us to discuss it.

[darkeyes]

Sometimes, Duckie.. blame and apportioning blame is necessary if we are to change the ethos of anything in order to make it better.. that there is something wrong in this school district appears self evident... and people should be pressing to get to the bottom of what it is... if there is a broader issue involved then it should be dealt with and if blame there is blame should be apportioned and those to blame dealt with in an appropriate manner.. it is likely that there is more to this problem than simply the bullying and suicide of kids who were gay or bisexual... a problem exists and a lot of people want it fixed... so just what is wrong should be properly and independently investigated and all the issues brought out openly in the interests of all the kids in that area and the ethos of the school district changed and measures implemented to eliminate as far as possible, just what the problems are which cause these tragedies... and where there is blame, those responsible should not escape the consequences...
I'm glad ur amused... but if u read the above you, Drew and Duckie were not the only ones to question what has gone on here and why... the debate, imperfect as it was went on without any animosity until Duckie raised the Christobelle/Christelle issue and then began to twist things to suit himself... from my point of view there remains no animosity, nor do I believe is there any felt by anyone else.. only irritation at and questioning of a stupid piece of debating which has harmed, not aided discussion on an important issue and in my view trivialised it... and no, I dont believe any of us have gone after him with both barrels loaded.. quite the contrary... there has been much restraint.. had u or Drew debated as he had done there would have been similar criticism.. it is not a matter of bullying.. it is a matter of how we debate and how far we go in attempting to get our point across and move the debate forward... Duckie overstepped the mark.. if I had acted as he has done at work and been caught out I would have been suspended, investigated, exposed and probably sacked.. deservedly so..

There is no bullying here.. much criticism certainly because that is fully warranted...

[Long Duck Dong]

I am not going to call anybody a bully.....cos I really do not care about who are bullies or who is doing bullying... what I care about is 8-9 lives were lost and all people care about is blaming a school system..... and that really stinks of avoiding any personal responsibility in regards to failing the teens.....and emphasizes the point that truth and fact do not matter as long as there is a target .... the same mindset of bullies..... and how people will justify their actions when doing so.... cos its the same way that bullies work..... IE the person is assumed to be LGBT, and even if they have partners of the opposite gender, that makes no difference, they must still be gay as that is the reason they are a target....

I merely used another members issue in this thread as a method to show my point... the fact of people thinking I am wrong, means nothing, as people will think I am wrong regardless, the fact that the name I used was of a member that did not exist, also means nothing..... the fact that LDD said something, was the focal point for most of the issue, NOT what was said, but LDD said it...... so it was never about being right or wrong, but proving a point.... truth and fact do not matter if there is a target......

how that applies to the thread, is the * blame the school * thinking.... now yes there is a issue within the school system, and it needs to be fixed... but blaming the school for 8-9 suicides, is not going to change the fact that most suicidal people are not coping with things and that is the aspect that people seem to constantly ignore......
the school system is faulty, some LGBT teens committed suicide, ergo: school must take the blame....

the truth of the matter is that 8-9 teens may have had internalized depression / inability to cope for whatever reason, and the fact that it may well have been totally missed ( I doubt that as I had read reports of at least a couple of the teenagers developing clear depression like symptoms ), means that a very real issue may be swept under the carpet and the school blamed for everything....

my stance is supported by a number of studies that are pointing towards the fact that teens ( including LGBT teens ) are suffering from forms of depression at a higher rate than 20 years ago...so there is external studies that are supporting the stance I have..... 8-9 teens may have committed suicide cos of very real issues that could be based in mental health issues that were compounded by bullying and a school system failure.... but cos the bullying and the school system failure are something that can be targeted, then they become the targets and the other MORE IMPORTANT ( I say that as mental health issues are not sexuality specific ) problem is not deemed to be a issue..... and the simple fact that the 8-9 teens may well have been saved or helped... instead we lost them, and there is a trend to immediately play the LGBT suicide by bullying, blame the school card.....

yes, kate, I take the loss of any life very fucking seriously..... suicide is a very real issue for many people and there is not always a school system to blame, and it would appear that a bigger part of the issue for some of the teens was depression, cause unknown but linked to bullying... the fact that people want to ignore that fact cos there is michelle bachman and a school system to slam, speaks volumes.....

I have shown how bullying can work, how truth and fact do not matter if there is a target, and how a very real issue for people can exist but all too often, be ignored and as usual, LDD is wrong for not playing by the rules of the forum and restricting debates to the narrow guidelines that are acceptable... IE bash people, not look seriously at the issue and what is going on

so yes, go after the school system and michelle bachman, but ALSO check out to see where the student support network failed and why 8-9 teens with possible depressive issues, were not addressed... as that may well have been the biggest contribution to the teens deaths.... as you can stop bullying and you can change school systems and you can change schools, but depression and others disorders are often silent killers... and even when a person reveals that they are suicidal, they are often not listened to ( one of the females made a number of statements about being suicidal ) and that is one of the biggest issues our teens face.....the fact that nobody listens to them...

it is the same fucking problems that people are fighting against in NZ, the failure of the mental health system when it comes to at risk teens, there is very limited resources for them ( a few websites and a 0800 number ) but every time a teen commits suicide, the school gets blamed and the teachers and that is the same thing going on in this thread.... but when its adults that commit suicide, its society that is blamed for not listening and for failing the person....

as for the inability to debate fairly, I am not debating, kate, its you and others that constantly play the one side or the other card.... I normally look at issues from ALL sides, I have repeatedly said it....and been ignored... all I was doing was proving a point, truth and fact do not matter if there is a target for people to go after.....
the fact that you want to see me as taking sides and not debating fairly, is merely showing the way that you are justifying your opinion that I am wrong..... all I am doing is saying that is the same thing that bullies do in the school yard....

so yes, the loss of life is a very serious one... and I will continue to do whatever it takes to get people to realise what the issue is, while others merely look for somebody to blame after the fact...... and if that makes me wrong, fine!!!... I would rather be wrong, saving lives, than be right and giving my heart felt sympathies to the families that have lost somebody

[darkeyes]

I am not going to call anybody a bully.....cos I really do not care about who are bullies or who is doing bullying...



as for the inability to debate fairly, I am not debating, kate, its you and others that constantly play the one side or the other card.... I normally look at issues from ALL sides, I have repeatedly said it....and been ignored... all I was doing was proving a point, truth and fact do not matter if there is a target for people to go after.....
the fact that you want to see me as taking sides and not debating fairly, is merely showing the way that you are justifying your opinion that I am wrong..... all I am doing is saying that is the same thing that bullies do in the school yard....



I think u should seriously think about what u say and how u say it sometimes.. I have yet to meet the bully who felt the need to justify his or her opinion.. except when caught bullying and babbling ad infinitum to the world as to why he or she was right and justifying his or her actions...

... very effective wrecking job Duckie.. well done...

[æonpax]

{snip/unsnip}
1) I normally look at issues from ALL sides, I have repeatedly said it....and been ignored...
2) all I was doing was proving a point, truth and fact do not matter if there is a target for people to go after.....
the fact that you want to see me as taking sides and not debating fairly, is merely showing the way that you are justifying your opinion that I am wrong{snip}

`
1) I wonder why?

2) First off, "Truth" is a subjective concept, don't ya know? What is true, in the literal sense, is always not fact. What may be true to you is not true to others, Facts? A fact is something that has really occurred or is actually the case. The usual test for a statement of fact is verifiability, something I have just never seen you do.

Having said this, your opinion on at least the mental health aspect of suicide does have merit ( http://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/topics/suicide-prevention/index.shtml ) but all the facts of these suicides are not known and for a lay person to make broad generalizations based on what few facts are known, is disingenuous.

[Long Duck Dong]

`
1) I wonder why?

2) First off, "Truth" is a subjective concept, don't ya know? What is true, in the literal sense, is always not fact. What may be true to you is not true to others, Facts? A fact is something that has really occurred or is actually the case. The usual test for a statement of fact is verifiability, something I have just never seen you do.

Having said this, your opinion on at least the mental health aspect of suicide does have merit ( http://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/topics/suicide-prevention/index.shtml ) but all the facts of these suicides are not known and for a lay person to make broad generalizations based on what few facts are known, is disingenuous.

1) cos people want to be right and see their *truth * as the only possible truth... bit like some christian believe their religion is the only correct religion, and that any other church / religion can not be right of correct...... for me its not a case of being right... as I do not care about being right.... what interests me, is learning to see thru others eyes.....

2) I can find 5 different versions of the *truth * about the teens including that there was 8 -9 student.... so what version of the truth, would you like me to post as verifiable ... cos outside of the fact that teens committed suicide, much of what has been said, is not fact, its assumption..... well except for the school policies etc

yes I agree, the facts of the suicides is unknown... but I see the same thing with people around me that have committed suicide that are mentally illness.... the mental illness is near always blamed... but that still doesn't tell me WHY they committed suicide......

as a person that have dealt with depression all of my life and suicidal tendencies, the reason I would commit suicide is cos I am tired, I have lived a good life and its time for me to move on..... but in the event that I commit suicide, it would be listed as a aspect of my sexuality and my mental health, which would be incorrect and misleading..... so yes I have personal experience in some aspects of what I talk about, but I would still be told I am wrong cos others want my situation to match their *truth * so they would ignore what I say about my own suicide and apply their *truth * to it, then hold my suicide up as proof of their stance that bisexuals with depression are more likely to commit suicide..... and not the truth that neither my sexuality or mental health really played any part in it.......

there is truth and there is fact, like I have said.... and people will believe their truth to be fact..... and in the case of the teens, I really do not know why they committed suicide, but nor am I assuming why either... merely looking at the possible reasons, rather than just saying LGBT got bullied, committed suicide, case closed.....

[Godoki]

9 suicides in two years? And nobody is doing anything? That sounds like that school is being ran by people listed on those people search (http://www.findermind.com/free-people-search-engines) sites. I mean, how come nobody is looking into this? Where are the parents of those kids?