What Is Your Religion?

[RavenEye]

And how does it affect your life as a bisexual? Do you think it's harder to live as a bisexual in your particular religion than in others? How so? I am agnostic.

[Long Duck Dong]

I have no religion, my ways are a hybrid mixture of various other beliefs that work well in my life......

the primary belief would be one of olde wicca, not the modern wicca.... but a way that has been shared and taught in my family for a number of generations

secondary include zen, shamanism and a couple that really have no name....

personally they do not affect my sexuality but encompass it...... and true to form, the most issues caused by my beliefs, is others need to argue them and tell me that my ways are not true cos the internet says.....

it is like saying to a christian that their personal walk with their god is not true or rights because they are not catholic.....

[Rhevan]

I've been a solitary practitioner of Wicca for most of my life, it doesn't affect my bisexuality at all. I have noticed lately though that I am incredibly drawn to a person in what could be termed a sexual way but it's not sexual. Wanting to touch and kiss and please and not have it be sexual or even sensual just full of peace.


Rhevan

[darkeyes]

Dont have ne religion.. athiesm doesnt affect my sexuality one jot.. peeps do quite a lot.. spesh peeps who have a nasty dose of religion... or more accurately peeps who have a dose of nasty religion.. or most accurate of all.. nasty peeps who claim 2 have religion an bend it an use it for ther own nasty lil ends..

[RockGardener]

I am Christian. My faith has never affected my sexuality..... However, my chosen place of worship has affected how I dealt with my sexuality. I spent a few years in some churches that did NOT approve of homo or bisexuality. Since I moved to Colorado, I have found the United Church of Christ. They are open and affirming, and believe that love is love. They feel there are more important things to worry about in the world than who you're sleeping with.

[12voltman59]

I really do fall into the category of Agnostic. I do believe that there is something beyond us and that there is more to life and existence than what we experience here living in these frail bodies and making our way in this world.

But all of that is merely a belief and my thoughts on the matter--it is not "proof" beyond some ecstatic experiences I have had---but researchers have proven that such states can be induced using very earthly and explainable means---like drugs of course, using electrical fields and even the processes of our brains at certain times either on its own accord or by doing something like meditating, so those experiences could either have been something I was actually experiencing or it was simply a matter of the firing of my brain synapses or other brain processes taking place with those experiences only taking place within the confines of my head in a pile of gooey biological material.

The reality is--no matter how much one might firmly believe with every fiber of one's being that the god as described by our religions does exist---we simply can never really have definitive proof that this god does in fact exist---as is quite often said by even religious leaders themselves----belief in God is a "matter of faith."

I think it is just fine that people can really truly believe in God and all----and that they want to live their lives in accordance with those beliefs as much as possible---but the rub comes when we have a clash between those who would like to structure things in the world along those lines and those of us who would prefer to structure things in a more secular fashion.

I don't really know the answer to that clash over world views when it gets really pointed.

Even though I am not a "religious" person---I do like songs that have a religious element to them--but were not specifically done as being a religious song--like this one from the Old Crow Medicine Show: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_TXNSipWUiE

Or this beautiful song from a female singer/songwriter named Matreca Berg: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qXyw67KTvJg

[bityme]

Tried many, practice none.

The problem I find with religion, at least institutionalized religion, is that they always turn out to be something that attempts to make people be content with their lot in life by giving them hope of a better afterlife.

I guess my philosophy is having a better life now. Treat others right and enjoy what life has to offer. Religion seems to want to restrict access to enjoying life, so it has never really worked for me.

Pappy

[æonpax]

Other....


http://i.imgur.com/VRwSz.jpg

[void()]

Am of a conclusion to respond with private, same as politics, ethics, philosophy. None effect nor are affected by my sexuality. Thanks, have a good one.

[elian]

I grew up in a conservative rural community which did not seem to be welcoming to any sort of minority. I thought it was a little hypocritical to say, "Jesus loves all people (except for those people over there)". It caused me some pain to know that the people who otherwise said they loved me might not if I told them what I was really feeling on the inside. So I left. I don't blame "Jesus", instead I recognize people are fallible, and so the institutions that are made up of people sometimes make mistakes.

When I managed to get to a REAL library I've read a little bit of everything. Human beings are very creative and can be capable of much good. My philosophy continues to be "celebrate diversity" including diversity in spiritual belief. If I find that something I study seems true, good and resonates with my heart then I don't mind believing in it - at least until I am proven wrong.

Officially I'm Unitarian, it was the most disorganized organized religion I could find. Propaganda video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wezp1W2HKlU

Unofficially, probably a cross between Gnostic Christian, humanist and Buddhist.

I do smile at the creativeness of the Flying Spaghetti Monster though..

<shakes head>

(from http://loose-canon.fsm-consortium.com/page-53)

"And The Flying Spaghetti Monster did come unto Dee Dee waiting at the front of Fred’s Italian Corner, for she was hungry and her wait did seem to be unending, and he filled her with His Heavenly Smells, and unto her He did speak:
“My True Believer and most excellent Administrator, My keeper of the knowledge that All is My Creation, and as much as any creationism is to be taught as science, My Creation is to be taught as science, I ask of you this: Carry to My True Believers these instructions, that when they give thanks for the Holy Feast, they shall remember and pray these words”:

Our One Creator Which Flies and is Spaghetti and a Monster,

I believe Thou art the Creator of Goodness and Nourishment, and of Sustenance. I thank the Pasta, and the Sauce, and the Meatballs, for they provide me all my needs.
I thank Thee for the Many Beverages that Thou provides, for they engender true fellowship, and I will quaff them heartily, be they Beer, or Wine, or Sweet Iced Tea (in the South), or even Milk or Kool-Aid, for it is not good to withhold fluids, and I need to take care of my Body, as Beneficiary of Thine Holy Goodness.
I thank Thee for the giving of healthful Green Salad, the Yummy Garlic Bread, and the Blessed Cheese for the top of my Spaghetti, and also I am most thankful that If I eat All my Dinner, a Dessert of Extreme Chocolateness will surely follow, preferably Dark Chocolate, for it is Good.
I believe that Thou are neither Male, nor Female, but are instead beyond the reaches of the gender confusion of Man and Woman Kind, yea, thou are ageless, timeless and all-encompassing.
I most humbly thank Thee, oh Noodly Appendaged One, for Touching me with the mental capacity to adapt the mythologies of This Universe to aid and comfort me here, until that day I am able to join together with my Pastafarian Brothers and Sisters at the foot of the Beer Volcano, and enumerate my specifications at the Stripper Factory, so that happiness and contentedness and good cheer be present for all, forever and forever,

RAmen."

And then the Flying Spaghetti Monster did sigh, for His Child Dee Dee did occasionally take it upon herself to embellish, and He laughed a jiggly laugh, for it was not He who specified the darkness of the chocolate in the dessert, nor that it be chocolate at all. He did tickle Dee Dee with his Appendages, and she did promise to confess to all that Our Lord Glob doth approve all sweet desserts, as long as the True Believer hath wasted not the Holy Meal.

(apologies to those of you who take your religion more seriously)

[Jobelorocks]

I am actually a pretty devout Catholic, and although I agree with the theology, I don't agree on all the morality rules. Plus I think it is a bad idea to put a bunch of old virgins in charge of making the rules on sex. lol

[innaminka]

Religion is a human construct for the enablement of power and to control the ignorant.
I guess you could say I am agnostic. :bigrin:

Therefore religion has absolutely no effect on my sexual or any other behaviour.

[Gearbox]

I'm a non-religious theist with a twist of Buddhism and hint of various.
I think it's a great benefit to be bi, as I explore more this way. YAY!:bigrin:

[ziggybabie]

Sith Lord should be an option. just sayin

[goldenfinger]

No religion here, but they do have created some rules on sexual behavior that I take great pleasure in breaking, without religion maybe there would be no taboo, which could be both good and bad.:eek:

[Darkside2009]

Christianity. I see it as being on a journey of personal growth and discovery, I might get diverted along the way but the scenery has much to recommend it.

Elian, I would suggest you read Matthew Chapter 5, especially verse 11. :)

[elian]

Christianity. I see it as being on a journey of personal growth and discovery, I might get diverted along the way but the scenery has much to recommend it.

Elian, I would suggest you read Matthew Chapter 5, especially verse 11. :)

I love these ladies.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NrmhRoS-XE4

[coyotedude]

Red Road.

My spirituality is part of who I am, just like my bisexuality is part of who I am. In terms of other people who walk Red Road... well, there are both open minded people and bigots in the community, just like in any other.

[roy m cox]

Sith Lord should be an option. just sayin


LOL :bigrin:

[keefer201]

I am a Christian and love my Jesus. I respect what others identify themselves as and have no issue with that. What I do have an issue with is the lack of respect that some display when it comes to soliciting their opinions by ripping the Christian faith. ;) Peace on earth and goodwill toward all. Merry Christmas

[void()]

Sith Lord should be an option. just sayin

Don't feel bad, Jedi was not listed either.

[lizard-lix]

I am a devout agnostic :bigrin:

I might have been an atheist, but I don't think I am smart enough to be absolutely certain that there is no deity, so I leave the door open, even if the room is empty.

[pepperjack]

Tried many, practice none.

The problem I find with religion, at least institutionalized religion, is that they always turn out to be something that attempts to make people be content with their lot in life by giving them hope of a better afterlife.

I guess my philosophy is having a better life now. Treat others right and enjoy what life has to offer. Religion seems to want to restrict access to enjoying life, so it has never really worked for me.

Pappy

Doesn't your philosophy produce contentment which you claim is a problem you have with religion? And treating others right is the essence of everything Jesus taught. Are you saying religion creates false hope? I think it creates a positive mindset which empowers people to overcome the hardships of life & triumph. There's a popular philosophy going around currently called The Law of Attraction. A key element of that belief is maintaining a grateful attitude. It merely ehoes what the Bible says, " In all things be grateful, for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you." And yet, self-help gurus & life/success coaches are becoming wealthy peddling this counterfeit teaching.:rolleyes:

[Gearbox]

@Peperjack- Please put down the stone! Step away from the stone! Glass house here!:eek:
:bigrin:

[pepperjack]

Awoke from a restful sleep this morning, took my time getting out of bed 'cause it's my day off; had lingering memories of a pleasant dream. Finally shuffled to the front porch ( by way of making 1st cup of coffee) to fetch morning paper & was startled to see a yellow full moon with a portion missing. Weather channel told me a total eclipse of the moon was occuring, last one until 2014. Went back outside for another look; had a perfect view. It was hovering just above the treeline on the horizon, yellowish-brown, half gone, an upside down half moon. Gave me a peaceful feeling; "Behold, the beauty of the Lord." Guess that's my religion.:cool:

[pepperjack]

@Peperjack- Please put down the stone! Step away from the stone! Glass house here!:eek:
:bigrin:

What stone? Was I throwing stones at ur glass house? Was merely expressing opinion.:)

[Gearbox]

What stone? Was I throwing stones at ur glass house? Was merely expressing opinion.:)
Well we know where expressing those kinds of opinions on others religions gets us.;)

[ziggybabie]

Don't feel bad, Jedi was not listed either.

because we have destroyed them all. only fools do not recognize the power of the dark side

[bigregory]

to hard to vote as I was born christan (but I am sure god does not like bi's)
Now I am just a human....

[Darkside2009]

Awoke from a restful sleep this morning, took my time getting out of bed 'cause it's my day off; had lingering memories of a pleasant dream. Finally shuffled to the front porch ( by way of making 1st cup of coffee) to fetch morning paper & was startled to see a yellow full moon with a portion missing. Weather channel told me a total eclipse of the moon was occuring, last one until 2014. Went back outside for another look; had a perfect view. It was hovering just above the treeline on the horizon, yellowish-brown, half gone, an upside down half moon. Gave me a peaceful feeling; "Behold, the beauty of the Lord." Guess that's my religion.:cool:

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I can relate to that, I have similar thoughts when I see some beautiful scenery in Nature. To see the World in a grain of sand, and find Heaven in a wild flower...we are greatly blessed. :)

[keefer201]

to hard to vote as I was born christan (but I am sure god does not like bi's)
Now I am just a human....

No one is born Christian anymore than one is born athiest. It's a matter of what faith we were raised in and that alone is like making you a hamburger just because you're at a McDonald's. Faith is a choice not an inherited condition.

[pepperjack]

because we have destroyed them all. only fools do not recognize the power of the dark side

I'm aware of the power of Darkside; he's very intelligent & articulate.:bigrin:

[void()]

because we have destroyed them all. only fools do not recognize the power of the dark side

Ha Ha! Our ploy to fool you into thinking you've destroyed us all has been a success. Now we shall vanquish you without impunity. "Destroy all infidels of Master Yoda!"

[elian]

No one is born Christian anymore than one is born athiest. It's a matter of what faith we were raised in and that alone is like making you a hamburger just because you're at a McDonald's. Faith is a choice not an inherited condition.

I do agree with you keefer, but according to the Catholic Church, if you are born into a Catholic family then you ARE Catholic by default..combine THAT with the prohibition on birth control and you've got a pretty steady supply of new members.

Having said that, I know plenty of people (at least in the US) who believe in the Catholic faith but have a more liberal interpretation of certain edicts from the Pope.

[ErosUrge]

I voted OTHER...

There are so many good responses here and I respect them all. Though I spent most of my life as a Christian, I also spent time as a Hindu and Buddhist. And then a period as a Wiccan too.

What I found for my own personal journey is that all of them have relevance if one is willing to dig deeper into them and not just accept the literal meaning of the messages as dictated by authorities. I found that it all comes down to one's own personal journey. No one religion or faith can be dictated to every single person. And no one, absolutely no one owns God or the path to God. I use God here but some are more comfortable with calling the same energy the Universe or Higher Power, etc. And I also respect atheists and agnostics as well. As long as a religion is not forced upon anyone, I think it holds more legitimacy.

Because of being bisexual, I found that I could no longer continue with the Orthodox Christian religion that I once belonged to. With Christianity, I find Gnosticism the most appealing.

Joseph Campbell was wonderful in demonstrating how each and every religion or spiritual tradition are all connected....for those unfamiliar with him, the Power of Myth series with Bill Moyers is highly recommended. Sending a link from it which gives just a hint of the wisdom he imparted.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7lWHJHhOs0&feature=related

[darkeyes]

I voted OTHER...

As long as a religion is not forced upon anyone, I think it holds more legitimacy.



.. such as having a child, maybe having him or her baptised, hauling him or her along to the kirk, synagogue, mosque or temple every week and raising in a particular belief... unless we consider the indoctrination of a child from the moment he or she shows any awareness and who knows no better as voluntary..

..ahh... cat..pigeons...;)

[Darkside2009]

.. such as having a child, maybe having him or her baptised, hauling him or her along to the kirk, synagogue, mosque or temple every week and raising in a particular belief... unless we consider the indoctrination of a child from the moment he or she shows any awareness and who knows no better as voluntary..

..ahh... cat..pigeons...;)

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A bit like taking children along to demonstrations. :rolleyes:

Most parents, I believe, raise their children the best way they know how, no matter what their political or religious views, or lack there of. Some parents are just feckless. Some try to instil their children with moral guidance to act as a moral compass throughout their life, nothing wrong in that.

Raising a child to follow the teachings of Jesus, is not something I would feel ashamed of. The World would not be amiss if we had a few others following his teachings of love, compassion, forgiveness.

Recovered from your hangover Dear, like an aspirin? :bigrin:

See how compassionate Big D can be? lol

[Darkside2009]

I do agree with you keefer, but according to the Catholic Church, if you are born into a Catholic family then you ARE Catholic by default..combine THAT with the prohibition on birth control and you've got a pretty steady supply of new members.

Having said that, I know plenty of people (at least in the US) who believe in the Catholic faith but have a more liberal interpretation of certain edicts from the Pope.

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The Roman Catholic Church had a policy of not burying a child in consecrated ground, if it died before it was baptised. Not being a Roman Catholic myself, I don't know if this policy is still adhered to.

It always struck me as an awful affront to already grieving parents. I believe the same policy also applied to those who had committed suicide.

On a lighter note:-

There is an old joke about a farmer taking his beloved sheep dog, which had just died down to the priest to enquire about burying the dog's body in the church cemetery so that on Judgement Day its soul might go to Heaven and be reunited with the farmer.

The priest says,' Sorry! This is consecrated ground, we can't bury an animal in here.'

'Alright,' the farmer says, 'I understand, I'll try the Presbyterians down the road, I was thinking of offering £10,000 for the service Father, do you think that will be enough?'

'Ach! Man dear,' said the priest, 'Sure why didn't you tell me the dog was Catholic?

[Jobelorocks]

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The Roman Catholic Church had a policy of not burying a child in consecrated ground, if it died before it was baptised. Not being a Roman Catholic myself, I don't know if this policy is still adhered to.

It always struck me as an awful affront to already grieving parents. I believe the same policy also applied to those who had committed suicide.

On a lighter note:-

There is an old joke about a farmer taking his beloved sheep dog, which had just died down to the priest to enquire about burying the dog's body in the church cemetery so that on Judgement Day its soul might go to Heaven and be reunited with the farmer.

The priest says,' Sorry! This is consecrated ground, we can't bury an animal in here.'

'Alright,' the farmer says, 'I understand, I'll try the Presbyterians down the road, I was thinking of offering £10,000 for the service Father, do you think that will be enough?'

'Ach! Man dear,' said the priest, 'Sure why didn't you tell me the dog was Catholic?
There is a thing called baptism of desire. If the parents were intending to baptize their baby, but weren't able to due to death or other circumstances, or even if someone older who desired baptism, but was not able to are covered by baptism by desire.

[darkeyes]

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A bit like taking children along to demonstrations. :rolleyes:

Most parents, I believe, raise their children the best way they know how, no matter what their political or religious views, or lack there of. Some parents are just feckless. Some try to instil their children with moral guidance to act as a moral compass throughout their life, nothing wrong in that.

Raising a child to follow the teachings of Jesus, is not something I would feel ashamed of. The World would not be amiss if we had a few others following his teachings of love, compassion, forgiveness.

Recovered from your hangover Dear, like an aspirin? :bigrin:

See how compassionate Big D can be? lol

We have taken our children occasionally on demonstrations.. but what we do not do is to indoctrinate them into what we believe.. I certainly would not dream of forcing my socialism down their throats or any other thing I hold dear.. we encourage them to have enquiring minds and to work things out for themselves and go elsewhere for information and not to just take our word for anything.. we do discuss things often and in depth as is appropriate to their ages but we do not tell them that what we say is the only way...of course we teach them a sense of right from wrong like any good parent and expect certain things while they live with us.. but they are being raised to know that we too are fallible and in time they will develop their own beliefs, which as far as we are able will be their beliefs not ours.. should either develop a belief in God it will not be because they have known nothing else, but because they have rationalised it for themselves.. and in that they will have our love and support.. we do not indoctrinate... that is the difference.. we are encouraging them to be who they wish to be not as we or some Holy Jo religious institution might..

[Darkside2009]

There is a thing called baptism of desire. If the parents were intending to baptize their baby, but weren't able to due to death or other circumstances, or even if someone older who desired baptism, but was not able to are covered by baptism by desire.

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I've just had an interesting half-hour reading the Catholic Encyclopaedia on the issue:-

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02258b.htm

I noted the view you expressed, dated 1983, but also noted what appeared to be an opposing view in the 1992 Catechism. I included the web-site for you to have a look yourself. It appears under the section dealing with infant baptism.

[Jobelorocks]

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I've just had an interesting half-hour reading the Catholic Encyclopaedia on the issue:-

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02258b.htm

I noted the view you expressed, dated 1983, but also noted what appeared to be an opposing view in the 1992 Catechism. I included the web-site for you to have a look yourself. It appears under the section dealing with infant baptism.

I read it, but it talked about baptism of desire, so unbaptized babies are still good as long as the parents intended to baptize the baby according to Church teaching and therefore could still be buried in hallowed ground. The Church though never says that someone for sure is going to hell or went to hell, that is left up for God to choose. There is teaching that God takes into account levels of knowledge (and therefore whether that person is accountable for certain things). The more knowledge you have the more accountable you are for things.

[Darkside2009]

We have taken our children occasionally on demonstrations.. but what we do not do is to indoctrinate them into what we believe.. I certainly would not dream of forcing my socialism down their throats or any other thing I hold dear.. we encourage them to have enquiring minds and to work things out for themselves and go elsewhere for information and not to just take our word for anything.. we do discuss things often and in depth as is appropriate to their ages but we do not tell them that what we say is the only way...of course we teach them a sense of right from wrong like any good parent and expect certain things while they live with us.. but they are being raised to know that we too are fallible and in time they will develop their own beliefs, which as far as we are able will be their beliefs not ours.. should either develop a belief in God it will not be because they have known nothing else, but because they have rationalised it for themselves.. and in that they will have our love and support.. we do not indoctrinate... that is the difference.. we are encouraging them to be who they wish to be not as we or some Holy Jo religious institution might..

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We have had this conversation before I believe. You teach your children your idea of what is right and wrong, by your own admission. Christians do likewise. You expect them to adhere to certain rules whilst they live under your roof, Christians do likewise.

Christians do not raise their children to think the parents are infallible quite the contrary.

What they are taught are concepts of compassion and charity and to love their neighbour as themselves. That greed and envy are destructive qualities, that we should be forgiving of others as they are as fallible as we ourselves are. That just as we ask God to forgive us our failings, we should forgive others theirs.

In all of this they are encouraged to ask questions, and are answered as well as their understanding will allow them given their age and intellectual capacity.

They are taught that the Ten Commandments are a code for living a moral and upright life, one at peace with oneself, one's family and one's community.

They are taught to work hard and use whatever talents God has given them, to be compassionate and hospitable to strangers.

They are taught to lead a good and useful life by example as far as they can.
Some may well grow up to become agnostics or atheists, just as your children might grow up to become religious.

As they grow they will undoubtedly re-examine all of these values they have been taught, to see if they are worth keeping, just as children will anywhere, even children of atheists.

In that, they will most certainly have our love and support. We hope they will find the values they have been taught to be of sufficient use in their lives that they will want to pass those values on to their own children, but if not it will have been their decision.

At no time is indoctrination involved, any more than Socialists advocate their view of the World, Humanists their view, Communists, etc etc etc.

You really should get over this prejudice you have of Religion, they are just fallible people, trying to live their lives according to their beliefs. Just as you do. Just as millions of others around the World do.

[darkeyes]

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We have had this conversation before I believe. You teach your children your idea of what is right and wrong, by your own admission. Christians do likewise. You expect them to adhere to certain rules whilst they live under your roof, Christians do likewise.

Christians do not raise their children to think the parents are infallible quite the contrary.

What they are taught are concepts of compassion and charity and to love their neighbour as themselves. That greed and envy are destructive qualities, that we should be forgiving of others as they are as fallible as we ourselves are. That just as we ask God to forgive us our failings, we should forgive others theirs.

In all of this they are encouraged to ask questions, and are answered as well as their understanding will allow them given their age and intellectual capacity.

They are taught that the Ten Commandments are a code for living a moral and upright life, one at peace with oneself, one's family and one's community.

They are taught to work hard and use whatever talents God has given them, to be compassionate and hospitable to strangers.

They are taught to lead a good and useful life by example as far as they can.
Some may well grow up to become agnostics or atheists, just as your children might grow up to become religious.

As they grow they will undoubtedly re-examine all of these values they have been taught, to see if they are worth keeping, just as children will anywhere, even children of atheists.

In that, they will most certainly have our love and support. We hope they will find the values they have been taught to be of sufficient use in their lives that they will want to pass those values on to their own children, but if not it will have been their decision.

At no time is indoctrination involved, any more than Socialists advocate their view of the World, Humanists their view, Communists, etc etc etc.

You really should get over this prejudice you have of Religion, they are just fallible people, trying to live their lives according to their beliefs. Just as you do. Just as millions of others around the World do.

I think that indoctrination is not a word of overstatement.. what else is it when a child is introduced into something before he or she is aware, hauled along to church or other such house as soon as he or she becomes aware and taught of a great omnipotent supreme being and that his or her already small place in the universe is even less than it is and much mumbo jumbo? If prejudice I have, it is none particlarly against those who believe but the institutions of the great faiths themselves and those few who run them and endeavour to impose their will upon us all... and that is small beer compared to the prejudice and oppression which those religions have inflicted on me and my kind over several millenia..

As the Jesuits say.. "give me the child....". Not for my children thank you..

[pepperjack]

I think that indoctrination is not a word of overstatement.. what else is it when a child is introduced into something before he or she is aware, hauled along to church or other such house as soon as he or she becomes aware and taught of a great omnipotent supreme being and that his or her already small place in the universe is even less than it is and much mumbo jumbo? If prejudice I have, it is none particlarly against those who believe but the institutions of the great faiths themselves and those few who run them and endeavour to impose their will upon us all... and that is small beer compared to the prejudice and oppression which those religions have inflicted on me and my kind over several millenia..

As the Jesuits say.. "give me the child....". Not for my children thank you..

Would growing up as an atheist make that same child feel more significant in the universe?;)

[Long Duck Dong]

if there is one thing I have noticed, its that when people say that they will not impose their will or way of thinking upon a child, they are people that are doing exactly that......

the moment you teach a child according to your understanding of what is right and what is not... its a form of indoctrination..... as we encourage * good * behievour based around our way of thinking ...... bit like praising a child for going to a protest rally and then posting in the forum about how cool it was for the child .... its a form of positive enforcement of your ways, rather than having a neutral response or a negative response.......

a child is free to make up their own mind, their own choices... yet when its parents that have a issue with religion, they will not be as supportive as they think cos their * issues * with religion, are already there in the household, when a person is * honest * with their children.....

the moment you say something like * mum and mum can not get married at the moment as the country is still using religion law and not the principal of equal rights for all * you are already fostering the seeds of doubt

many people will say that they are not very expressive of their opinions about things around the children, and thats possibly true in many cases, but nor are religious people.... they use the bible.....

even our own actions set a trend in a childs eyes.....if one parent is going to protests, its hard to hide that from a child, unless you try and * decieve * them.....

it is not the words from a persons mouth to the masses, nor the deeds they may perform in the public eye, that a child will see.... but what their parents say and do about their own opinions and actions, is what a child will see... and indoctrination of a child is not about pushing beliefs down their throat but about setting a example that the child can see 24/ 7 that is the true nature of indoctination.....

[darkeyes]

Would growing up as an atheist make that same child feel more significant in the universe?;)

That is for them to decide not for me or anyone else.. allow them to choose whether to be so or believe.. informed choice when he or she is sufficiently able to rationalise and work things out for his or herself..

[RavenEye]

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We have had this conversation before I believe. You teach your children your idea of what is right and wrong, by your own admission. Christians do likewise. You expect them to adhere to certain rules whilst they live under your roof, Christians do likewise.

Christians do not raise their children to think the parents are infallible quite the contrary.

What they are taught are concepts of compassion and charity and to love their neighbor as themselves. That greed and envy are destructive qualities, that we should be forgiving of others as they are as fallible as we ourselves are. That just as we ask God to forgive us our failings, we should forgive others theirs.

In all of this they are encouraged to ask questions, and are answered as well as their understanding will allow them given their age and intellectual capacity.

They are taught that the Ten Commandments are a code for living a moral and upright life, one at peace with oneself, one's family and one's community.

They are taught to work hard and use whatever talents God has given them, to be compassionate and hospitable to strangers.

They are taught to lead a good and useful life by example as far as they can.
Some may well grow up to become agnostics or atheists, just as your children might grow up to become religious.

As they grow they will undoubtedly re-examine all of these values they have been taught, to see if they are worth keeping, just as children will anywhere, even children of atheists.

In that, they will most certainly have our love and support. We hope they will find the values they have been taught to be of sufficient use in their lives that they will want to pass those values on to their own children, but if not it will have been their decision.

At no time is indoctrination involved, any more than Socialists advocate their view of the World, Humanists their view, Communists, etc etc etc.

You really should get over this prejudice you have of Religion, they are just fallible people, trying to live their lives according to their beliefs. Just as you do. Just as millions of others around the World do.

I was raised in a Protestant home my entire life. It may look and feel all nice like that but it's just a sugar coating. When I told my Minister that I was bisexual she said she would me "fix it." which led me to continue to believe that there was something wrong with me. They prayed over me to get the "demon" out. That didn't work. Then when my parents thought I was gay they sent me to some Christian Conversion therapists and we won't get into that. Anyways, it seems most religions INCLUDING Christians are quicker to judge and hate than love and accept. Besides, you think the Bible ONLY contains MORALE in it? Let me correct you:

"Here, take my virgin daughter and this man's concubine. I will bring them out to you, and you can abuse them and do whatever you like. But don't do such a shameful thing to this man." Judges 19:24

"Happy is the one who takes your babies and smashes them against the rocks!" -Psalm 137:9

"And you will hear of wars and threats of wars, but don't panic. Yes, these things must take place, but the end won't follow immediately." Mark 13:7

So God says rape is ok, along with excessive child abuse, and war! I feel the love already!!!

[elian]

'Ach! Man dear,' said the priest, 'Sure why didn't you tell me the dog was Catholic?

Well I think every institution has made unwise decisions in its history. I try very hard to remember the difference between the people and the institutions - I love the people, sometimes the institutions get off track.

I also remember that here in the States it's non-profits and churches that do the most social and social justice work..don't see too many "for profit" companies taking up social work.

I was jealous of Christianity for a while because I kept hearing the same message over and over, "all you have to do is believe!" ..the same way I was jealous of other differently sexed people snogging in public.. At one time I felt I had to work twice as hard to find both spiritual comfort and peace with myself as a person. I try very hard to forgive and find peace in my heart over institutional policies - it's not always easy.

Yes, a lot of children learn the ten commandments, at least six of the major world religions all adhere to the first three principles anyway.

The argument I hear from atheists is that religion encourages people not to take responsibility and it limits their potential. ANY faithful belief when it is abused could potentially cause those issues..I know one of my atheist friends who preaches more now than he ever did when he was "other". Sometimes faith, even if you can't SEE it .. is important - I couldn't SEE my way out of growing up as a teenager but a few good friends and a still calm voice inside of me urged me to keep going - I'm glad it did.

One thing I do admire about the atheist "faith" is that rather than just wishing, hoping and waiting for heaven a lot of them try to take action now to make the world a better place. Although I feel uncomfortable leaving the statement there because there are religious charities all over the world helping people who have no food, medicine or shelter..who am I?

Maybe if you've been trained and exposed to marketing all of your life that says you must be self-serving, competitive and believe the free market is the ultimate aspiration of humankind then you NEED something as radical as "God" to believe that "Giving things away for free is good for you."

Of course, I still think prayer is important - Unitarians have a saying about prayer - "Prayer doesn't change things, prayer changes people and people change things." In my short lifetime I have seen it both ways - people changing their circumstances through hard work AND also what seemed to be a miracle at the time..

[void()]

Interesting (http://www.psychologytoday.com/collections/201112/the-big-question-why-are-we-here) reading, I think.

[darkeyes]

if there is one thing I have noticed, its that when people say that they will not impose their will or way of thinking upon a child, they are people that are doing exactly that......

the moment you teach a child according to your understanding of what is right and what is not... its a form of indoctrination..... as we encourage * good * behievour based around our way of thinking ...... bit like praising a child for going to a protest rally and then posting in the forum about how cool it was for the child .... its a form of positive enforcement of your ways, rather than having a neutral response or a negative response.......

a child is free to make up their own mind, their own choices... yet when its parents that have a issue with religion, they will not be as supportive as they think cos their * issues * with religion, are already there in the household, when a person is * honest * with their children.....

the moment you say something like * mum and mum can not get married at the moment as the country is still using religion law and not the principal of equal rights for all * you are already fostering the seeds of doubt

many people will say that they are not very expressive of their opinions about things around the children, and thats possibly true in many cases, but nor are religious people.... they use the bible.....

even our own actions set a trend in a childs eyes.....if one parent is going to protests, its hard to hide that from a child, unless you try and * decieve * them.....

it is not the words from a persons mouth to the masses, nor the deeds they may perform in the public eye, that a child will see.... but what their parents say and do about their own opinions and actions, is what a child will see... and indoctrination of a child is not about pushing beliefs down their throat but about setting a example that the child can see 24/ 7 that is the true nature of indoctination.....

I could have taken offence at what you say Duckie, at least in respect of the first line of your post but I dont, for I know it to be in part truth.. some are just as you say, but not all as u infer are hypocrites.. whether or not they have religious belief.. and some parents who are religious think as we; that their children have a right to be allowed to formulate their beliefs and opinions without undue and doctrinaire infuence by the parents.. even in matter religious...and all credit to them..

.. closeness of familial connection and proximity will heavily influence a child.. that is unavoidable.. and certain rules should be adhered to by children and we do try to instil in them a sense of what is right and wrong in accord with our own sense of right and wrong if for no other reason than to make family life bearable.... we are no different from other parents in that regard.. but what we do not do is tell them our way is the only way, that our beliefs are the only beliefs or that they must believe what we do, and we encourage them to discover for themselves what they believe.. they are encouraged to question everything we say and every decision we make and to have their own input.. nothing is set in stone and rules can be and are changed because of that..

We do not operate a rule of censorship at home, or prohibit them from reading any material which may encourage them in this, and that includes our own extensive library which includes books on people I find repugnant, politics I find repellant, issues I find disgusting all of which exist in at least as great numbers as any I may generally admire or agree with...this very large library was not entirely gathered together by us, but much by Kate's late father and mother in whose home we now live, neither of whom were agnostic or athiest, and neither of whom could be described as left wing, an were certainly not gay or bisexual, but like many, were a strange concoction of liberal and conservative tendencies.. the library they built exists in its entirety alongside that created by ourselves...

We do not and will not dictate to them what they must believe or think, or what they can read or see.. or with whom they can and cannot discuss their cares and concerns as they grow and form their own beliefs.. yes Duckie, we cannot help but be an influence.. sometimes, often in fact, rebellion is the result just as it is with those who dictate or indoctrinate more than we ever do.., but everything we do is not to instil them with our views of the world, our senses of morality or our social consciences, or even since that is the subject of the thread, our religion or lack thereof, but to let them develop their own with as much freedom and as little imposition as it is possible give.. not allow... give.. and if rebellion is the result, and rebellion we do sometimes get.. then all to the good... we are doing it right.. but we have found it more likely to be a constructive rebellion born out of knowledge than as with those who dictate to or indoctrinate their children into their way, resentment of parental authority.... and it is less likely to be rebellion with acrimony..

We are not perfect parents for none can be.. we make mistakes and sometimes we are both too lenient and too harsh and even I am ashamed to say dictatorial.. but this does not mean that we impose our will on our children unduly and it never ever means that they must accept what we say without question or that they must believe what we say as, forgive the pun, gospel..

[Darkside2009]

Do not think so little of me as to grant me your tolerance. Allow me your acceptance and understanding of who and what I am with the love, respect and dignity with which I do you.

Seems like a good time to amend your profile. :rolleyes:

Are your statements what pass for tolerance in Scotland, these days? As for according respect and dignity to others that have different beliefs than your own, that has been notable by its absence in your posts on this matter.

You really ought to get over your bigotry and examine the views of others with some semblance of honesty, and with the open mind you claim to offer your children.

I don't have any problem with you being an Atheist or a Socialist, or of you raising your children in the best way you see fit.

Has religion been abused and twisted in the past? Most assuredly. Has Socialism, again most assuredly. Does that make the fundamental precepts of either system wrong? No.

A hammer can be used for its purpose of hammering nails into wood, it can also be misused to smash someone's skull in. Do we blame the hammer? No we blame the person misusing it.

Do we blame Socialism because Stalin misused it for his own ends? No, we blame Stalin for misusing it.

[Darkside2009]

I was raised in a Protestant home my entire life. It may look and feel all nice like that but it's just a sugar coating. When I told my Minister that I was bisexual she said she would me "fix it." which led me to continue to believe that there was something wrong with me. They prayed over me to get the "demon" out. That didn't work. Then when my parents thought I was gay they sent me to some Christian Conversion therapists and we won't get into that. Anyways, it seems most religions INCLUDING Christians are quicker to judge and hate than love and accept. Besides, you think the Bible ONLY contains MORALE in it? Let me correct you:

"Here, take my virgin daughter and this man's concubine. I will bring them out to you, and you can abuse them and do whatever you like. But don't do such a shameful thing to this man." Judges 19:24

"Happy is the one who takes your babies and smashes them against the rocks!" -Psalm 137:9

"And you will hear of wars and threats of wars, but don't panic. Yes, these things must take place, but the end won't follow immediately." Mark 13:7

So God says rape is ok, along with excessive child abuse, and war! I feel the love already!!!


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Would you be so kind as to refer me, chapter and verse in the Bible, where GOD said it was ok to rape someone. The church you attended seems to have provided you with a poor understanding of what it means to have God in your life. I suggest you find another church.

[darkeyes]

Do not think so little of me as to grant me your tolerance. Allow me your acceptance and understanding of who and what I am with the love, respect and dignity with which I do you.

Seems like a good time to amend your profile. :rolleyes:

Are your statements what pass for tolerance in Scotland, these days? As for according respect and dignity to others that have different beliefs than your own, that has been notable by its absence in your posts on this matter.

You really ought to get over your bigotry and examine the views of others with some semblance of honesty, and with the open mind you claim to offer your children.

I don't have any problem with you being an Atheist or a Socialist, or of you raising your children in the best way you see fit.

Has religion been abused and twisted in the past? Most assuredly. Has Socialism, again most assuredly. Does that make the fundamental precepts of either system wrong? No.

A hammer can be used for its purpose of hammering nails into wood, it can also be misused to smash someone's skull in. Do we blame the hammer? No we blame the person misusing it.

Do we blame Socialism because Stalin misused it for his own ends? No, we blame Stalin for misusing it.

I have no objection whatever to a person believing what they do and practicing what they believe in accord with their conscience and the religious creed to which they belong. I am not intolerant of it, would not ban it and will defend to my last breath their right to believe as they wish and practice that belief as they wish.. but I do not believe however deeply we care for cause or faith we have the right to deliberately instil into a child those things we believe..

...as far as we can we should deny ourselves that selfish little pleasure and allow that child to develop his or her own faith if any, own cause if any, and own beliefs when sufficiently old enough to decide for him or herself when sufficiently well informed to do so... if that is bigotry then I will gladly plead guilty.. in the same way as I would plead guilty if accused as such for my opposition to the religious condemnation of homosexuality..

That I criticise what I see as the indoctrination of children is not to be bigoted or intolerant but to point out something I believe is a grave error and abuse of adult power over the life of a child.. it is not irrational nor born out of hate for faith or person.. I do not hate Christianity, Buddhism, Islam, Judaism or any other faith certainly not their adherents.. I simply am not a believer.. the statement you copy was written about one aspect of myself.. my sexuality..and I live by that.. but it does extend into my life generally.. if u read it carefully it is not inconsistent in any way with what I have said or am saying nor does it betray hypocrisy or bigotry...

Further.. I would argue that the abuse of power by indoctrinating children into religion can be equated to that of Stalin's abuse of soclaism.. because just what did he do to the children of the Soviet Union?

U may criticise me and may say as u wish, but permit me to reply as I wish.. I respect your opinion but do not agree with it.. and I do not mind one jot you expressing it.. even down to calling me bigot..

[ErosUrge]

I think that indoctrination is not a word of overstatement.. what else is it when a child is introduced into something before he or she is aware, hauled along to church or other such house as soon as he or she becomes aware and taught of a great omnipotent supreme being and that his or her already small place in the universe is even less than it is and much mumbo jumbo? If prejudice I have, it is none particlarly against those who believe but the institutions of the great faiths themselves and those few who run them and endeavour to impose their will upon us all... and that is small beer compared to the prejudice and oppression which those religions have inflicted on me and my kind over several millenia..

As the Jesuits say.. "give me the child....". Not for my children thank you..

oh dear me...these discussions do get heated don't they. Such is the way with religion and politics. I quote you because I am in total agreement with you. I started here with my opening comment because of some of the other posts. Indeed it is true that we often don't see what we are doing when raising our children. I once was devoted to certain practices within the American Orthodox Church based on the Russian Orthodox Church. My own practice of the disciplines of fasting, prayer, meditation, etc were fine for me. But it was difficult in the church community as there were so many rigid people. The Pharisees are alive and well today in all churches. As a priest once told me at the church I was attending at a meeting in his office; " I know what you are talking about. I deal with these people daily. The question comes down to what do you want? I see the excesses just as you do. They're already caught up in the nonsense. But if you're lost in observing their excesses, then you will miss out on what is possible here." I agreed at the time and continued going. However, I could not dare reveal my desires for the same sex or the fact that there were billions of people on the planet that had their own ideas of God and religion or not. They just could not see that there were places on the planet where the Orthodox Christian religion was not the dominant one nor that there was another way to live and believe. And of course, all other Christian faiths were not the true way either. There was two others there that I was able to talk openly about such things but we had to keep our ideas under wraps from the rest of the community. And what kind of community is that? Anyhow, I would take my child with me to this church. She observed and absorbed whatever was going on with the services. In time when she became adolescent she lost interest in going and expressed it to me. At that point I no longer took her with me and had already been considering not going and stopped attending altogether. Besides taking her with me there, I never told her how she should believe or be nor ever indoctrinated her about the religion. In our time together my only guidance were the logical moments such as being careful when crossing the street and being aware of where she was riding her bicycle, etc. And in her moments of doubt or confusion she always knew that I was there to comfort her and support her. She is now a young woman and totally independent. Though she feels there is more to our existence than just the sun in the sky and existing on a third planet going round it, she doesn't buy into the institutions that DO indoctrinate and push their ideas on humanity. We hopefully do the best we can do in raising our children and of course when they become adults, they remember. And in that memory the one thing that is remembered more than anything else is if there was love and support and breathing room to be their own person. Opinions, religions, politics, and all the rest matter not unless they were force fed these things as I was when I was a child. Fortunately, I too had moments where I was allowed independence. But when I became a teen I had to fight for these things which greatly disappointed my parents. All I can say is I took the good that they gave me and rejected that which was bigoted and shortsighted; at least from my perspective. Our children do the same and hopefully don't or won't have as much garbage to sift through. I want to say further that it isn't necessarily the religion(s) per se, but what happens when people decide on the interpretations that can taint the essence of it. So many examples of this but one case in point would be the Spanish Inquistion...
enough.....

[CuddlyKate]

You really ought to get over your bigotry and examine the views of others with some semblance of honesty, and with the open mind you claim to offer your children.



It is a common enough approach by those whose belief is under critical review to attempt to discredit the opinions of critics by accusing opponents of bigotry.

Unlike Frances, from earliest memory I remember belief in and fear of God without understanding, the anguish and guilt it often caused me as a small girl who had no understanding and the criticism from parents as I matured, questioned and in time lost the faith in which I had been raised.

I do not possess her certainty that there is no God, but I believe it more than likely that there is not. No child should be forced to believe anything when they do not have the capacity and ability to understand what they are being told to accept and believe. This is why we raise the children as we do and are so criticial of what we see as indoctrination of children.

My partner and I have many disagreements, not least about the raising of the children, but about this there is not the thickness of a molecule of air between us.

[12voltman59]

I am a devout agnostic :bigrin:

I might have been an atheist, but I don't think I am smart enough to be absolutely certain that there is no deity, so I leave the door open, even if the room is empty.

If you are, as much as we human beings can be, a rational reasonable person, really do have to be agnostic and keep your mind open either way---because of the nature of God and all non-corporeal things talked about in any religious, spiritual or metaphysical realm----it is unlikely that we can ever either prove or disprove such "things" by the means and standards of our "reality."

I can sure say this--since I did reject the more traditional teachings of the Christian faith that I was born to a long time ago----born a Roman Catholic---if it God is really that big old judgmental being that loves to spite us to hell and all--well--I guess I am fucked because I am riding that hell bound train pretty much full speed ahead for a lot of reasons----that largely includes that sorts of activities that I love to do--like SEX since if God has really dictated that we can only engage in sex after we get married and its only to make babies----well----I have never once had sex for procreation reasons and also never had it only in the confines of marriage--and I probably never will--so for that alone--I guess am consigned to the fire pits of hell if we are to believe the teachings of most religions----and I sure as heck am not going to ask for forgiveness for committing such "sins" since I surely don't believe that having sex for merely for fun either with women or men is a sin.

I guess that if I am going to hell--- I can at least become of the devil's evil minions and do some tormenting of my own once I am down there--like getting to stick with hot pitchforks the hypocritical preachers who talk a good game about fornication and such being so bad--when they themselves engaged in such activity and "worse" (like diddling little boys and girls)!!!!

[ErosUrge]

[QUOTE=12voltman59;216799]If you are, as much as we human beings can be, a rational reasonable person, really do have to be agnostic and keep your mind open either way---because of the nature of God and all non-corporeal things talked about in any religious, spiritual or metaphysical realm----it is unlikely that we can ever either prove or disprove such "things" by the means and standards of our "reality."QUOTE]

well said.....very

[Darkside2009]

It is a common enough approach by those whose belief is under critical review to attempt to discredit the opinions of critics by accusing opponents of bigotry.

Unlike Frances, from earliest memory I remember belief in and fear of God without understanding, the anguish and guilt it often caused me as a small girl who had no understanding and the criticism from parents as I matured, questioned and in time lost the faith in which I had been raised.

I do not possess her certainty that there is no God, but I believe it more than likely that there is not. No child should be forced to believe anything when they do not have the capacity and ability to understand what they are being told to accept and believe. This is why we raise the children as we do and are so criticial of what we see as indoctrination of children.

My partner and I have many disagreements, not least about the raising of the children, but about this there is not the thickness of a molecule of air between us.

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I agree, accusing opponents of bigotry is a tactic used by both left and right in debate, much like using the emotive word indoctrination.

But if the shoe fits Cinderella shall go to the Ball.

Fran claims that she teaches her children her idea of what she believes to be right and wrong, but somehow if Christians do the same thing, it suddenly becomes indoctrination.

It is all very well stating that children should be left to make up their own minds regarding religion when they are old enough and intelligent enough to understand, but how does that work exactly?

In order to develop a critical faculty one must have the knowledge to sift through in the first place, or are they supposed to imbibe this knowledge by some process of osmosis, or watching You Tube, or their peer group at school?

One might as well not teach them anything, then expect them to be able to read when they reach eighteen. We both know education does not work like that, children are exposed to knowledge as befits their age and intellectual capacity to understand.

When the topic of Religion in general, and Christianity crops up on these threads, Fran loses no time in castigating the beliefs of those she does not agree with, yet she asks for tolerance, and respect for her own views. To me that is hypocrisy, I have always believed that respect was earned, not given.

Now Fran and yourself may raise your children, and instruct them, in whatever manner you see fit, they are your children and your responsibility, but kindly allow Christians and those of other Religions to raise their children as they see fit, without attempting to castigate or belittle their beliefs, just because you might not share those views.

I would rather not surrender my responsibility for the moral and physical welfare of any children I might have, to the advice of one of their peer group behind the school bike sheds, nor to a teacher who might regard my views as indoctrination simply because they do not coincide with her World view.

As to your parents, I have no knowledge of them, and would prefer not to drag them into this argument, as they are not here to defend themselves.

If you thought their parental care was inadequate, or adverse to your well-being, that is to be regretted. However you are an adult now, you are free to believe in God or not, as you so wish. I for one would not dream of robbing you of that choice. By the same token do not seek to rob me of my choices in the manner in which I see fit to raise any children I might have.

We, all of us, live our lives by what we believe in, when individuals trample on our beliefs, they trample on us, when they besmirch, or belittle our beliefs, they are disrespecting us and our intelligence to make our own choices. It is also more than a little arrogant and condescending.

[elian]

It is a common enough approach by those whose belief is under critical review to attempt to discredit the opinions of critics by accusing opponents of bigotry.

Unlike Frances, from earliest memory I remember belief in and fear of God without understanding, the anguish and guilt it often caused me as a small girl who had no understanding and the criticism from parents as I matured, questioned and in time lost the faith in which I had been raised.

I do not possess her certainty that there is no God, but I believe it more than likely that there is not. No child should be forced to believe anything when they do not have the capacity and ability to understand what they are being told to accept and believe. This is why we raise the children as we do and are so criticial of what we see as indoctrination of children.

My partner and I have many disagreements, not least about the raising of the children, but about this there is not the thickness of a molecule of air between us.

Funny thing that, my family was traditionally Catholic but I never really attended services and my folks discontinued going to the Catholic church when I was very young. However, if I panic in dreams or suffer from things such as hypnagogic sleep I often find myself reciting "The Lord's Prayer" or a few "Hail Mary's" without thinking..

Rationally as an adult I can try to convince myself that "The Devil" has only the power I ascribe to him but to some degree I suppose the basic ideas are programmed in when we are children if we are exposed to them.

Actually, I usually reach for those prayers because I know that OTHER people find power in them, the entities to which I am referring when I speak the words are well renowned and it is relatively easy to exploit the power of their ideas for the correct means. Of course, it would be a lot more effective if I remembered ALL of the words but I never had a bunch of nuns to drill them into me.

I am of the opinion that the naughty things I imagine speaking the prayers to generally get the idea..I'm not so sure it's the words but rather the intention that bothers them and the fact that if I concentrate only on the words instead of the fear there is little they can do to unbalance me...

[æonpax]

`
I grew up in a strict, evangelical Baptist setting and attended their grade school. In eighth grade, one of the ministers (who was in charge of youth activities), sexually assaulted me over a period of time. I became pregnant. The assault aside, the reaction from both my parents and the church was what really threw me. It was me who seduced the minister…I was a succubus…and was told I had to get an abortion. The same people who claimed abortion was evil, wanted to force one on me. I learned about the word; hypocrite.

In my bitter but immature sadness and rage, I lashed out at my parents and their so-called religion and church, not only refusing to get an abortion but threatening to go public in the community with my plight…not that I would have received any sympathy because we lived thick in the bible belt where loyalties to ones church run for generations. I was sent to live with an aunt, hundreds miles to the north, in WI. I never did return.

The lesson I eventually learned is that religion, in this particular case, Christianity, can be used and perverted by people to further their own goals. However such goals do not emulate the life of the Prophet Jesus, whose namesake followers, claim to worship.

I have no problem with any religion, so long as it doesn’t get in my face or interfere with my rights or life. Unfortunately, self righteous religion and politics are riding in the same cart in the US.

…and so it goes….


http://i.imgur.com/GE8iL.jpg

[RavenEye]

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Would you be so kind as to refer me, chapter and verse in the Bible, where GOD said it was ok to rape someone. The church you attended seems to have provided you with a poor understanding of what it means to have God in your life. I suggest you find another church.

The first thing any church tells you is that the bible is the word of God!

"Therefore, we never stop thanking God that when you received his message from us, you didn't think of our words as mere human ideas. You accepted what we said as the very word of God--which, of course, it is. And this word continues to work in you who believe." 1 Thessalonians 2:13

So if we are going to live by the bible, and in so God, then it tells us we can offer our daughters up as rape victim and it's OKAY.

PS I'm not hating, I swear. Just a good debate. :)

[darkeyes]

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I agree, accusing opponents of bigotry is a tactic used by both left and right in debate, much like using the emotive word indoctrination.

But if the shoe fits Cinderella shall go to the Ball.

Fran claims that she teaches her children her idea of what she believes to be right and wrong, but somehow if Christians do the same thing, it suddenly becomes indoctrination.

It is all very well stating that children should be left to make up their own minds regarding religion when they are old enough and intelligent enough to understand, but how does that work exactly?

In order to develop a critical faculty one must have the knowledge to sift through in the first place, or are they supposed to imbibe this knowledge by some process of osmosis, or watching You Tube, or their peer group at school?

One might as well not teach them anything, then expect them to be able to read when they reach eighteen. We both know education does not work like that, children are exposed to knowledge as befits their age and intellectual capacity to understand.

When the topic of Religion in general, and Christianity crops up on these threads, Fran loses no time in castigating the beliefs of those she does not agree with, yet she asks for tolerance, and respect for her own views. To me that is hypocrisy, I have always believed that respect was earned, not given.

Now Fran and yourself may raise your children, and instruct them, in whatever manner you see fit, they are your children and your responsibility, but kindly allow Christians and those of other Religions to raise their children as they see fit, without attempting to castigate or belittle their beliefs, just because you might not share those views.

I would rather not surrender my responsibility for the moral and physical welfare of any children I might have, to the advice of one of their peer group behind the school bike sheds, nor to a teacher who might regard my views as indoctrination simply because they do not coincide with her World view.

As to your parents, I have no knowledge of them, and would prefer not to drag them into this argument, as they are not here to defend themselves.

If you thought their parental care was inadequate, or adverse to your well-being, that is to be regretted. However you are an adult now, you are free to believe in God or not, as you so wish. I for one would not dream of robbing you of that choice. By the same token do not seek to rob me of my choices in the manner in which I see fit to raise any children I might have.

We, all of us, live our lives by what we believe in, when individuals trample on our beliefs, they trample on us, when they besmirch, or belittle our beliefs, they are disrespecting us and our intelligence to make our own choices. It is also more than a little arrogant and condescending.

Time prevents me from replying more fully to this load of dross.. so I will answer very briefly just two points.. firtsly, I have said that like any parent we teach our children a sense of what is right from what is wrong.. any parent as far as I can work out meansany parent, religious or otherwise.. so dont misrepresent or actually more accurately plainly be untruthful about what I said..

..secondly... I have said that I do not believe in God..and yes I do say so and say so publicly.. by criticising views with which I do not agree and asking for tolerance respect is hypocrisy is it? Am I then to shut me face and hold my tongue? Do I argue disrespectfully and intolerantly? You may believe so, but I allow people exactly the same rights and privileges in debate as I allow myself... more usually..because I know people have beliefs they care about and yes, Darkside I do respect that and try to understand why they believe as they do.. that is why I believe in freedom of speech and freedom to believe or not in whatever God happens to be or not be out there..

U believe of me what u like that is entirely ur affair.. that I deny the accusation of hypocrite and bigot and do object to because it is simply not so.. but Darkside hun, I respect ur right to believe it and to even say it even if it is a view based on the skimpiest of evidence...

[keefer201]

The first thing any church tells you is that the bible is the word of God!

"Therefore, we never stop thanking God that when you received his message from us, you didn't think of our words as mere human ideas. You accepted what we said as the very word of God--which, of course, it is. And this word continues to work in you who believe." 1 Thessalonians 2:13

So if we are going to live by the bible, and in so God, then it tells us we can offer our daughters up as rape victim and it's OKAY.

PS I'm not hating, I swear. Just a good debate. :)

Just what in thee hell does that mean?

[Long Duck Dong]

Time prevents me from replying more fully to this load of dross.. so I will answer very briefly just two points.. firtsly, I have said that like any parent we teach our children a sense of what is right from what is wrong.. any parent as far as I can work out meansany parent, religious or otherwise.. so dont misrepresent or actually more accurately plainly be untruthful about what I said..

..secondly... I have said that I do not believe in God..and yes I do say so and say so publicly.. by criticising views with which I do not agree and asking for tolerance respect is hypocrisy is it? Am I then to shut me face and hold my tongue? Do I argue disrespectfully and intolerantly? You may believe so, but I allow people exactly the same rights and privileges in debate as I allow myself... more usually..because I know people have beliefs they care about and yes, Darkside I do respect that and try to understand why they believe as they do.. that is why I believe in freedom of speech and freedom to believe or not in whatever God happens to be or not be out there..

U believe of me what u like that is entirely ur affair.. that I deny the accusation of hypocrite and bigot and do object to because it is simply not so.. but Darkside hun, I respect ur right to believe it and to even say it even if it is a view based on the skimpiest of evidence...

debate all you want.... you deny the existence of god..... and that is fine.... it is a personal opinion......

its the remarks you make about it all being mumbo jumbo etc that is the issue..... in the same way that some people told you that the reference to mere mortals was offensive and you defended your right to express yourself..... and how it was a joke........

my mother is anti LGBT and christian, while I disagree with some of her opinions, I do not rubbish her belief in christ as mumbo jumbo.... its a simple show of respect and tolerance for her personal beliefs..... and I show by example, how I would like her to respect my personal faith and beliefs......

[darkeyes]

debate all you want.... you deny the existence of god..... and that is fine.... it is a personal opinion......

its the remarks you make about it all being mumbo jumbo etc that is the issue..... in the same way that some people told you that the reference to mere mortals was offensive and you defended your right to express yourself..... and how it was a joke........

my mother is anti LGBT and christian, while I disagree with some of her opinions, I do not rubbish her belief in christ as mumbo jumbo.... its a simple show of respect and tolerance for her personal beliefs..... and I show by example, how I would like her to respect my personal faith and beliefs......

There was no rubbishing belief if u read it carefully.. I have never rubbished belief.. the phrase "mumbo jumbo" was intended as a reference to the rituals which many religous bodies of this planet cook up to go along with and reinforce belief.. if believers believe, there should be no need of such but then that is a personal opinion.. u dont have to like it..

[pepperjack]

The first thing any church tells you is that the bible is the word of God!

"Therefore, we never stop thanking God that when you received his message from us, you didn't think of our words as mere human ideas. You accepted what we said as the very word of God--which, of course, it is. And this word continues to work in you who believe." 1 Thessalonians 2:13

So if we are going to live by the bible, and in so God, then it tells us we can offer our daughters up as rape victim and it's OKAY.

PS I'm not hating, I swear. Just a good debate. :)

This is a perfect example of how some people will twist, distort and pervert scripture which leads to Christianity getting a bad rap.

[darkeyes]

Regarding the age when a child is able to decide for him or herself that very much depends on the child.. but not at 4 or 5, or 7 or 8.. not on fundamental issues such as politics and belief in God... I do not say that as a child grows, he or she should not be taught something of these issues in the sense that they will or should never be discussed in the home.. proximity makes this unavoidable.. my mother uses the phrase "little pickles have big ears" when children are about and it is true and they have an insatiable curiosity and we should not ignore their questions nor should we exclude them entirely from family discussions on great issues.., but I do not think that it is our place to tell them that they must believe in our view or our cause or our God.. not simply because mummy and daddy believes... they are their own person and have the right in time to decide where they will stand on issues we care about with as little indoctrination as possible from us... information and education sure.. but indoctrination??

A child should be left to work things out as he or she matures, not be told "this is how it is and this u must believe" and never denied access to information which will help him or her do that..and dont underestimate the value of school peer groups.. they will learn things from them, and not all very good either.. but not all are bad, especially as they grow out of childhood and into adolescence and beyond.... but it is one thing to make sure children have access to knowledge and quite another for us to ram knowledge down their throats as "gospel"... once again you have ignored what I have previously said on that issue... we are there to guide them through childhood as best we can and prepare them for the rigours of adulthood.. not to try and make them into clones of ourselves... we will substantially fail in that should we try...

.. I do not castigate and belittle the beliefs of others any more than you on this issue.. or any issue.. I debate and argue not to belittle but because I have something to say..as do u.. I understand the depth of feeling people have on things which are important to them and are their core belief because I have such beliefs too.. but I do believe it is a very dangerous thing we do when we try and impose upon a child our beliefs and our passions... it also in my view shows a lack of respect for the child who will in the end whatever we do be very different to the one we expect and hope for.. hopefully decent and happy, but that is not always the case no matter how well we raise them.. but if we raise them well and with love and respect then I believe they have a greater chance in life of being worthy of themselves.. in having certain rules for good family order, this is a necessary imposition just as teaching them what we expect of them when it comes to right and wrong.. I repeat... whether we are religious or not. But that is not quite the same as teaching them our core values of religous and/or political or other beliefs..t it is not quite the same thing at all as teaching them what and in whom they must believe..

My dad was an athiest raised a prebyterian who lost his faith.. religion was discussed in our household but not in such a way as to impose his lack of belief in God or Christ.. how we grew up and what we believed was left to us to decide at a time we deemed approriate.. not him.. or my mum or anyone else.. us.. we..ourselves.. things were discussed for informative and educational purposes because religion, and Christianity in particular is a fundamental part of our society we cannot avoid, is a deep rooted part of our history and culture, has shaped our country and society to what it is today and is linked loosely to his socialist beliefs..the Christian socialist beliefs of his father.. what he did not do was show us quite the same respect in terms of his politics.. we were raised to be socialists.. we had it drummed into us from a very early age.. we were taken to political demonstrations and meetings, we mixed with children of other socialists.. it was lived and breathed and we were expected to think as he.. and my mother to a lesser extent who shared his left wing opinions for the most part...yes what he told us was for information and education but it was indoctrination pure and simple.. in his view.. there was no other way and we will believe.. I see no detectable difference between what my dad did regarding his socialism and what people with religious belief do to their children except in the subject matter..

I have moved on..I am far to the left of my dad's socialism.. I consider his politics wishy washy pink, I do not regret that upbringing any more than I regret the way he brought us up when it comes to religion.. but that is because I was raised the way I was and think the way I do.. I have long believed his political education of myself and my siblings was a parental mistake which should never have been.. educated and informed yes.. but brought up that there is only one way.. one true political calling.. that of democratic socialism at the expense of all others? That my beliefs would have been different I have no doubt, but to what extent is impossible to say.. his political teaching was a mistake.. and it was my father trying to ensure that the next generation of his family would keep the torch of socialism burning.. my brother and sister fundamentally share his beliefs.. both remain in the Labour party.. both, like the old man on the left of that party.. but I have moved on in my way much more radically than they.. but I will show greater respect to my children than my dad did to us.. and my brother fyi is doing to his 7 yo son and beginning to with his 5 yo son and in a very few years will do to his 10 month old daughter...children have the right as they grow to develop how they feel and what they believe with as little imposition from us as we can manage.. we will provide whatever means are necessary for them to become their own person develop those beliefs and that does not mean feeding them only information of which we may approve, but making sure they have access to any information which may be pertinent.. even information which would make us shudder with revulsion.. but indoctrinating them into those beliefs, and by doing so trying to turn them into mere extensions of ourselves and perpetuate we believe is not on..that we will influence is undeniable..and unavoidable.. that we impose and dictate what a child will believe is quite another thing and something we should avoid..

We do not allow children to develop freedom of thought by putting their minds in mental straightjackets. Whether or not we indoctrinate or not does not mean they will not develop freedom of thought.. but it does mean that their freedom of thought will be constrained in some way because of what we have deliberately instilled in them.....if we wish humanity to maximise its potential as a species, we need to ensure that as few constraints as possible are placed upon its thought.. we do not do that by constraining the mental faculties of human beings from the minute they show a glimmer of intellectual awareness..

[tenni]

I have only partially read this thread but I'd like to add a comment with regard to children and religion. darkeyes refers/infers? to the age of 4 to 8 as too young to make decisions for themselves. It is my understanding that many/most kids do not have a sufficiently developed brain to use abstract reasoning until after the age around 12 years old. This is a physiological maturation issue. Children's beliefs about spirituality and other more abstract concepts are going to be more than not what their parents have told them before this age. They may question "why not" as far as right and wrong but not be fully capable of deciding whether they agree with a certain religious perspective from a mind that is capable of weighing various perspectives. Some may argue that a child they know is able to but scientifically that is not so.

[Canticle]

Very other. Spiritual and heading more towards Buddhism....and onward and upward in my ever evolving awareness.

[Canticle]

I have only partially read this thread but I'd like to add a comment with regard to children and religion. darkeyes refers/infers? to the age of 4 to 8 as too young to make decisions for themselves. It is my understanding that many/most kids do not have a sufficiently developed brain to use abstract reasoning until after the age around 12 years old. This is a physiological maturation issue. Children's beliefs about spirituality and other more abstract concepts are going to be more than not what their parents have told them before this age. They may question "why not" as far as right and wrong but not be fully capable of deciding whether they agree with a certain religious perspective from a mind that is capable of weighing various perspectives. Some may argue that a child they know is able to but scientifically that is not so.

Ya think, tenni? ;)

I think I was about 4 years of age when my disillusionment with the Church of England, set in. It was Sunday school, after the main Sunday Service and parents stayed in the church, with their children. The subject was Noah and the Flood and the Vicar asked the children to name an animal saved by Noah. I stuck an arm into the air and the Vicar asked me, to name an animal. My reply was ''A crocodile.'' The Vicar laughed, the parents laughed, the children laughed...I did not. I could not understand the laughter and I can still feel the frown upon my little face. A crocodile was one of God's creatures and I did not understand why no one would think, that two of them, would not be on the Ark. I guess that doubt, which set in, aged 4 years, was why, come the Harvest Service, I carried my bag of apples, up to the altar.......and turned around and brought them back with me. i do believe that there was quite a difficult time, getting me to part company with them. Thankfully, my mother became disillusioned with the church, at that time, so we never attended again. I can assure you, tenni, that I knew what disillusioned me...even at that early age and it wasn't the concept of a God.....but what i saw around me.

[jamieknyc]

I am of course the ranking member of the Chosen People here, as you all know.

With regard to bisexuality, Jewish people of all segments of Judaism tend to overlook such things so long as they are kept a private matter and not made into a public display. So I have it a little easier than a lot of other people here.

[Darkside2009]

Time prevents me from replying more fully to this load of dross.. so I will answer very briefly just two points.. firtsly, I have said that like any parent we teach our children a sense of what is right from what is wrong.. any parent as far as I can work out meansany parent, religious or otherwise.. so dont misrepresent or actually more accurately plainly be untruthful about what I said..

..secondly... I have said that I do not believe in God..and yes I do say so and say so publicly.. by criticising views with which I do not agree and asking for tolerance respect is hypocrisy is it? Am I then to shut me face and hold my tongue? Do I argue disrespectfully and intolerantly? You may believe so, but I allow people exactly the same rights and privileges in debate as I allow myself... more usually..because I know people have beliefs they care about and yes, Darkside I do respect that and try to understand why they believe as they do.. that is why I believe in freedom of speech and freedom to believe or not in whatever God happens to be or not be out there..

U believe of me what u like that is entirely ur affair.. that I deny the accusation of hypocrite and bigot and do object to because it is simply not so.. but Darkside hun, I respect ur right to believe it and to even say it even if it is a view based on the skimpiest of evidence...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Load of Dross, Load of Bollix, Fairy Stories, Mumbo Jumbo, Indoctrination... these are just some of the words you have used to describe my beliefs. In no way could they be construed as respectful to people who believe in something different to you.

Because your Father 'rammed' his Socialist beliefs into his family does not mean I would teach any children I might have in the same manner. My parents were both Socialists all their adult lives, I am not, they did not try to 'ram' their views on anything in to me. If I asked a question, they answered me as best they were able, if I still felt unsatisfied I was encouraged to look elsewhere for answers.

I was encouraged to have an enquiring mind and to ask questions and look for answers.

As a child I read widely, including books on the occult, at no time did they attempt to prevent me reading or thinking about anything.

They taught me what they believed in and the reason why they held such beliefs. They also taught me that other people could and often did think differently, they did not act in a condescending manner to those who believed differently from them.

They believed, as I do, that God gave us all freewill and the capacity to use it
to the best of our ability. As they viewed this freewill as a gift from God, they treated people with dignity and respect, as to the choices they made with that freewill.

I have never castigated anyone for being an agnostic or an atheist, or a pagan or for any other religious choice on this forum. On the contrary I have stated time and again, it is their life and their choice.

You by contrast have lost no opportunity to slur those of the Judaeo/Christian faith with your sneers and insults. Yet you ask for tolerance for your own beliefs. So yes, I call you a hypocrite, a bigot and intellectually dishonest in your attempts to wriggle out of the comments you have made in the past.

Your words and comments about my choice of beliefs are extremely offensive. You are not addressing one of your classes of children with half-formed ideas, you are dealing with adults on this site who have made conscious choices in their life, that differ from the choices you have made in your life.

You declare yourself an Atheist and that is fine by me, your life, your choice. My life, my choice.

It is pointless to have Kate come online to clean up the mess you have created with your words, as though you are some exuberant puppy that has just urinated on the carpet.

You are an adult and a teacher, you are expected to have some semblance of sensitivity for other people's views, irrespective of your own.

[jamieknyc]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Load of Dross, Load of Bollix, Fairy Stories, Mumbo Jumbo, Indoctrination... these are just some of the words you have used to describe my beliefs. In no way could they be construed as respectful to people who believe in something different to you.

Because your Father 'rammed' his Socialist beliefs into his family does not mean I would teach any children I might have in the same manner. My parents were both Socialists all their adult lives, I am not, they did not try to 'ram' their views on anything in to me. If I asked a question, they answered me as best they were able, if I still felt unsatisfied I was encouraged to look elsewhere for answers.

I was encouraged to have an enquiring mind and to ask questions and look for answers.

As a child I read widely, including books on the occult, at no time did they attempt to prevent me reading or thinking about anything.

They taught me what they believed in and the reason why they held such beliefs. They also taught me that other people could and often did think differently, they did not act in a condescending manner to those who believed differently from them.

They believed, as I do, that God gave us all freewill and the capacity to use it
to the best of our ability. As they viewed this freewill as a gift from God, they treated people with dignity and respect, as to the choices they made with that freewill.

I have never castigated anyone for being an agnostic or an atheist, or a pagan or for any other religious choice on this forum. On the contrary I have stated time and again, it is their life and their choice.

You by contrast have lost no opportunity to slur those of the Judaeo/Christian faith with your sneers and insults. Yet you ask for tolerance for your own beliefs. So yes, I call you a hypocrite, a bigot and intellectually dishonest in your attempts to wriggle out of the comments you have made in the past.

Your words and comments about my choice of beliefs are extremely offensive. You are not addressing one of your classes of children with half-formed ideas, you are dealing with adults on this site who have made conscious choices in their life, that differ from the choices you have made in your life.

You declare yourself an Atheist and that is fine by me, your life, your choice. My life, my choice.

It is pointless to have Kate come online to clean up the mess you have created with your words, as though you are some exuberant puppy that has just urinated on the carpet.

You are an adult and a teacher, you are expected to have some semblance of sensitivity for other people's views, irrespective of your own.

You do realize that Marxists are more of religious fanatics about their theological quarrels of Marxism than any Christian fundie is, don't you?

[RavenEye]

This is a perfect example of how some people will twist, distort and pervert scripture which leads to Christianity getting a bad rap.

This is EXACTLY my point! Anyone can take any scripture in the bible and twist it the way they want! Why do you think there are so many sects?! If I come out to any Christian as bisexual they could give me the verse:
"Do not practice homosexuality, having sex with another man as with a woman. It is a detestable sin." - Leviticus 18:22

But I can easily come back at them and say:
"How I weep for you, my brother Jonathan! Oh, how much I loved you! And your love for me was deep, deeper than the love of women!" 2 Samuel 1:26

My overall point being that while while Bible DOES offer words to live a morale life, people seem to overlook it and only the condemnation in what they think is making the world a better place when, in fact, they're making things worse! (Example (http://prideinutah.com/?p=11093)) It's a battle that nobody can win! "God loves everyone! Except those people over there." :banghead: Not that I'm saying Christianity isn't the only the religion that does this. Look at Islam and Al Qaeda.

[darkeyes]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have never castigated anyone for being an agnostic or an atheist, or a pagan or for any other religious choice on this forum. On the contrary I have stated time and again, it is their life and their choice.

You by contrast have lost no opportunity to slur those of the Judaeo/Christian faith with your sneers and insults. Yet you ask for tolerance for your own beliefs. So yes, I call you a hypocrite, a bigot and intellectually dishonest in your attempts to wriggle out of the comments you have made in the past.



Well I know where I stand with you don't I?

You will be hard pressed to find anywhere in all the posts I have ever written to find a word of castigation of anyone for their belief in God.. I have often questioned that belief and even criticised it and yes sometimes used a floweryness of language, but have never ridiculed them for holding their beliefs..I do not slur people for being or believing.. I may criticise the belief but have always accepted, tried to understand and respected that their beliefs are central to their very existence.. you may not like how I deal with the issues, my language or that I am so often critical but please try and get it right...

Religious belief is not so special a matter that it should be immune to criticism.. and as a person I am not so special that anything I say should be immune from it either.. but just as I defend the rights of every religious person to believe as they do and speak as they find I expect myself to be given that right also..

What you believe of me is unimportant.. I am not insensitive to criticism but feel free to call me what you like.. some will agree no doubt with what you say, but that doesn't mean it is so.. when we contribute to anything we set ourselves up potentially for a good slagging and it is a risk we take.. that, my dear, is what living in a (sort of)free society and having (relatively)freedom of speech is about...

..and to clear up one thing.. I didn't have Kate do anything... if u knew her u would understand that...

[darkeyes]

You do realize that Marxists are more of religious fanatics about their theological quarrels of Marxism than any Christian fundie is, don't you?

For once I agree wivya Jamie..even if I wouldnt quite use the religious terminology... miracles will never cease...;)

[drugstore cowboy]

I am of course the ranking member of the Chosen People here, as you all know.

With regard to bisexuality, Jewish people of all segments of Judaism tend to overlook such things so long as they are kept a private matter and not made into a public display. So I have it a little easier than a lot of other people here.

We're all the Chosen People, in the eyes of God or whatever you want to call the higher power, not just Jews only.

Jewish people can actually be VERY homophobic and biphobic.

You will mainly find this among Orthodox and Hasidic Jews; but you can also find a lot of so called liberal or reform Jews who claim that they are all for the rights of LGBT people and our equality but then in reality they are actually homophobic and are hypocrites.

[pepperjack]

This is EXACTLY my point! Anyone can take any scripture in the bible and twist it the way they want! Why do you think there are so many sects?! If I come out to any Christian as bisexual they could give me the verse:
"Do not practice homosexuality, having sex with another man as with a woman. It is a detestable sin." - Leviticus 18:22

But I can easily come back at them and say:
"How I weep for you, my brother Jonathan! Oh, how much I loved you! And your love for me was deep, deeper than the love of women!" 2 Samuel 1:26

My overall point being that while while Bible DOES offer words to live a morale life, people seem to overlook it and only the condemnation in what they think is making the world a better place when, in fact, they're making things worse! (Example (http://prideinutah.com/?p=11093)) It's a battle that nobody can win! "God loves everyone! Except those people over there." :banghead: Not that I'm saying Christianity isn't the only the religion that does this. Look at Islam and Al Qaeda.
I remember stumbling upon a quote as a seeking and struggling young Christian which stated, (paraphrased), "The Devil will quote scripture to achieve his ends", which I suspect probably evolved from 2Corinthians 11:14 "...for Satan himself shall be transformed into an angel of light." I also know that The Word of God is referred to as a "two-edged sword", which I personally interpret to mean, those who wield that sword should do so carefully,lest they are are also cut by it.:2cents:

[jamieknyc]

This is EXACTLY my point! Anyone can take any scripture in the bible and twist it the way they want! Why do you think there are so many sects?! If I come out to any Christian as bisexual they could give me the verse:
"Do not practice homosexuality, having sex with another man as with a woman. It is a detestable sin." - Leviticus 18:22

But I can easily come back at them and say:
"How I weep for you, my brother Jonathan! Oh, how much I loved you! And your love for me was deep, deeper than the love of women!" 2 Samuel 1:26

My overall point being that while while Bible DOES offer words to live a morale life, people seem to overlook it and only the condemnation in what they think is making the world a better place when, in fact, they're making things worse! (Example (http://prideinutah.com/?p=11093)) It's a battle that nobody can win! "God loves everyone! Except those people over there." :banghead: Not that I'm saying Christianity isn't the only the religion that does this. Look at Islam and Al Qaeda.

David and Jonathan were NOT carrying on any kind of homosexual relationship. The Bible is quite clear that apart from the matter involving Batsheva, David did not commit any sins. I Kings 15:5.

[keefer201]

David and Jonathan were NOT carrying on any kind of homosexual relationship. The Bible is quite clear that apart from the matter involving Batsheva, David did not commit any sins. I Kings 15:5.

If you took the time and read all of First Samuel, you would realize that the relationship between David and Jonathan was one of obediance to God, warriors and a trusting relationship as Jonathans' father Saul wanted David dead. This is a lie that the homosexual community tries to throw in the face of orthodox Christianity, and as far as Jamie goes, Judiasm. Fact is my friend, it doesn't fly.

[keefer201]

That post was in refrence to what RAVENEYE posted. Sorry Jamie.

[elian]

If you took the time and read all of First Samuel, you would realize that the relationship between David and Jonathan was one of obediance to God, warriors and a trusting relationship as Jonathans' father Saul wanted David dead. This is a lie that the homosexual community tries to throw in the face of orthodox Christianity, and as far as Jamie goes, Judiasm. Fact is my friend, it doesn't fly.

This is why I HATED the movie "300" - 300 Spartan soldiers, all male; you don't see ONE PENIS in the whole movie and about half a scene that insinuates that two of the soldiers MIGHT have slept together...grr..

[elian]

I think the saddest thing that happened with at least the Abrahamic religions is that they took humanity out of the religion. Isn't it terrible, to know that God is "up there" and we "lowly sinners" are "down here" .. sex is bad, mostly - and I can't just "know God" - I have to have an interpreter to tell me what God is saying.. My belief is that although I certainly still have a lot to learn, God does not want me to be ashamed of my humanity.

My relationship with God got a lot better when I started thinking of the divine in personal terms as a loving partner instead of something that i am separate and apart from...my guess is that too many people in the traditional church would consider such belief heretical.

As a matter of fact when I get frustrated at "those other people" I see in traffic, etc. it sometimes soothes my soul to remember our common desires and know that I am also connected to each and every one of you ..

[pepperjack]

This is why I HATED the movie "300" - 300 Spartan soldiers, all male; you don't see ONE PENIS in the whole movie and about half a scene that insinuates that two of the soldiers MIGHT have slept together...grr..

AWW...c'mon guy; I liked the movie;Just like Spartacus.Some of us can read between the lines & know that when there's that much testosterone going on, there's going to be some m/m action eventually....submarines, locker rooms,etc.:bigrin:

[pepperjack]

Accidentally stumbled onto a very interesting episode of NatGeotv tonite titled, The Tomb of Jesus. I was riveted for most of it. All kinds of new fascinating info; my mind was expanded.:rolleyes:

[ziggybabie]

In all seriousness, I am agnostic atheist, if you wanna label me. I'm only 'agnostic' or uncertain about an undefined deity though. Not the ones from (what I feel are) any of our man made myths including Christianity. I grew up with parents who were "Christian" in name, technically, but we were not really religious or church going. Between like 10 and 13, I guess, I actively prayed before bed and meals. You could say I was a 'believer'.

Somewhere around my teens, I started trying new foods, new music, new ways of thinking about some things. I applied this to religion, asking myself questions like "Would you still be Christian if you grew up in Iran, Japan, India, or certain parts of Africa?" and pondering "Maybe there's one god, but just different religions around the globe" which I realized was impossible as some contradict each other meaning all cannot be 'correct'. The more I listen to debates between atheists and Christians, (which atheists usually won), the less and less sense the stories of my youth made to me any more. I eventually became agnostic (though I did not even know what that word meant then), then gradually became 'atheist' somewhere along the line.

I went back later and decided that I would be open to SOME higher power, but I just believe IF such a being existed, noone on Earth is speaking for it, meaning it should not affect how we live. I still find parts of religion to be interesting, but kinda for the same reason I'm a fantasy and sci fi fan. I take bits of inspiration from Jesus, Gandhi, Buddha, and other real and/or fictional religious idols, but I do the same with some philosophers, musical artists/songs, movies, etc etc. /my two cents

[Michigan_cpl]

why should it matter what religion i am ?

[elian]

It doesn't matter cpl, but I do like hearing people's own descriptions of what they believe..I might learn something that way.

[bluesky55]

From the first day I heard this back in 1972 I said it makes sense to me and have been a faithful follower ever since.

I'm a Frisbiterian.

We worship the frisbee and believe that when you die your soul gets stuck on the roof and you can't get it down. How much more enlightening can you get than that?

[pepperjack]

Well, it's that time of year again when all the testy atheists come out of the woodwork to challenge nativity scenes, crosses and any other religious symbolism they encounter in public and find offensive. Don't these people have anything better to do than to go out of their way to rain on someone else's parade? Major Scrooges! If they're so enlightened, why can't they adopt an attitude of live & let live?:santa:

[BiCplAz]

I am actually a pretty devout Catholic, and although I agree with the theology, I don't agree on all the morality rules. Plus I think it is a bad idea to put a bunch of old virgins in charge of making the rules on sex. lol

Perfect answer. I am Catholic but God gave me feelings that have made me what I am, a bisexual person. And what does a church have to say that hired gay preists that wouldn't go against the marriage laws of the church but would sexually engage with choir boys. And only one church has said anything about Obama care allowing abortions paid for with taxpayer money. Nobody has to ask me why I don't go to Mass any more.

[pepperjack]

Perfect answer. I am Catholic but God gave me feelings that have made me what I am, a bisexual person. And what does a church have to say that hired gay preists that wouldn't go against the marriage laws of the church but would sexually engage with choir boys. And only one church has said anything about Obama care allowing abortions paid for with taxpayer money. Nobody has to ask me why I don't go to Mass any more.

It's because of the Catholic Church that many in the world are disillusioned with religion.

[BiCplAz]

It's because of the Catholic Church that many in the world are disillusioned with religion.

With all my heart I wish I could argue with that.

[pepperjack]

With all my heart I wish I could argue with that.

Believe me, I understand your pain! I was born into a Catholic family, went to Catholic school as a youngster, taught by nuns, the whole nine yards. When old enough to choose for myself, I explored the gamut of the Protestant churches, Baptist, Nazarene, Methodist, Pentecostal and eventually, Mormon, the church which I still respect the most to this day.

[BiCplAz]

Believe me, I understand your pain! I was born into a Catholic family, went to Catholic school as a youngster, taught by nuns, the whole nine yards. When old enough to choose for myself, I explored the gamut of the Protestant churches, Baptist, Nazarene, Methodist, Pentecostal and eventually, Mormon, the church which I still respect the most to this day.

That's great you found something to believe in. I wen to all thoes churches with my mother to expose me to all, so she said, but there was bo Jewish or other. I made friends with many Jewish people and consider myself very well rounded religiously but I can't shake my Irish Cathloc ways, or my Jameson’s too.

[pepperjack]

That's great you found something to believe in. I wen to all thoes churches with my mother to expose me to all, so she said, but there was bo Jewish or other. I made friends with many Jewish people and consider myself very well rounded religiously but I can't shake my Irish Cathloc ways, or my Jameson’s too.

Yes, I found something to believe in; God Almighty, whose voice came to me one cold winter day through the bright sunlight of that day!:)

[jamieknyc]

We're all the Chosen People, in the eyes of God or whatever you want to call the higher power, not just Jews only.

Jewish people can actually be VERY homophobic and biphobic.

You will mainly find this among Orthodox and Hasidic Jews; but you can also find a lot of so called liberal or reform Jews who claim that they are all for the rights of LGBT people and our equality but then in reality they are actually homophobic and are hypocrites.

I doubt that you know any Orthodox or Hasidic Jews. I know a great number of both, and they don't get involved with what anyone outside their own community does.

[jamieknyc]

AWW...c'mon guy; I liked the movie;Just like Spartacus.Some of us can read between the lines & know that when there's that much testosterone going on, there's going to be some m/m action eventually....submarines, locker rooms,etc.:bigrin:

Actually, it is a myth that homosexuality was accepted in ancient Greece. The only form of acceptable homosexual conduct was what we would call pedophilia, especially associated with athletics on the Penn State/Jerry Sandusky model. Sane-sex relations between adult males was considered deeply shameful, and was punished severely in some Greek states.

[elian]

Actually, it is a myth that homosexuality was accepted in ancient Greece. The only form of acceptable homosexual conduct was what we would call pedophilia, especially associated with athletics on the Penn State/Jerry Sandusky model. Sane-sex relations between adult males was considered deeply shameful, and was punished severely in some Greek states.

From what I read It wasn't so much that homosexuality was denounced as much as the "submissive" person bore the shame, you can find examples of that in many cultures today as well.

I've read about a few native cultures that had "coming of age" rituals involving adults and children in what we would now consider to be inappropriate situations. As far as Mr. Sandusky is concerned I don't doubt that he did it. but it is painful to imagine him in the shower with a little boy who is crying and begging him to stop. How anyone could ever derive any pleasure from that I'll never know..it's very sad. I feel very strongly that children ought to have enough maturity to stand on their own two legs before adults who ought to know better start reaching for what is between them.

[pepperjack]

From what I read It wasn't so much that homosexuality was denounced as much as the "submissive" person bore the shame, you can find examples of that in many cultures today as well.

I've read about a few native cultures that had "coming of age" rituals involving adults and children in what we would now consider to be inappropriate situations. As far as Mr. Sandusky is concerned I don't doubt that he did it. but it is painful to imagine him in the shower with a little boy who is crying and begging him to stop. How anyone could ever derive any pleasure from that I'll never know..it's very sad. I feel very strongly that children ought to have enough maturity to stand on their own two legs before adults who ought to know better start reaching for what is between them.

Agree with you on this. Jamie's post also intrigued & motivated me to dig a little deeper and yes, it's not completely accurate. Apparently the Greeks accepted it enough to create an elite military unit known as the Sacred Band of Thebes. Also, the youths of that time and in those relationships were courted, groomed, treated with love and respect, not aggressively raped & psychologically terrorized like the victims in the Sandusky scandal, so, I thought that was an unfair comparison. Although my original post was playful jest, it contained a certain measure of truth, namely, knowing that in any arena of life where men are in groups, inevitably there's going to be some homosexual activity going on. Anyway, it's been a good learning experience, something I never tire of.

[jem_is_bi]

I am not into any Religion.
Most all basic religious principals are great starting points to build a just and rewarding life. But, the devil is in the details. The dogmatic beliefs of all religions very, very often lead to intolerance and violence of the members against those that believe differently and very often counter to the real truth. Further, this dogmatic approach to live invades and taints secular governance which undermines the principles of a working democracy.
So, when I die, I will just fade away.
But, I hope my contributions to science will last and be step-stones for others to a greater understanding of the way it really is.

[pepperjack]

I am not into any Religion.
Most all basic religious principals are great starting points to build a just and rewarding life. But, the devil is in the details. The dogmatic beliefs of all religions very, very often lead to intolerance and violence of the members against those that believe differently and very often counter to the real truth. Further, this dogmatic approach to live invades and taints secular governance which undermines the principles of a working democracy.
So, when I die, I will just fade away.
But, I hope my contributions to science will last and be step-stones for others to a greater understanding of the way it really is.

Ok, here we go again! Since you're "not into any religion," why are you making a reference to " the devil is in the details."?:rolleyes:

[æonpax]

Ok, here we go again! Since you're "not into any religion," why are you making a reference to " the devil is in the details."?:rolleyes:

Here's a good explanation: The words "god, devil" etc, are part of the English lexicon and are not always religious. Should an atheist, after stubbing his/her toe, yell out, "Oh my nothing", instead of "oh my god?" ...or how about swearing, "Nothing damit"

God and Devil can mean many things to many people and the use of those words in speech and writing, is NOT an indication of any religious belief or persuasion. The use of such words is called, "colloquialism."

Thank God, I'm an Atheist.

[elian]

One of my best friends preaches a whole heck of a lot more now that he's an atheist then he ever did when he thought of himself as a theist. I told him, "I'm glad you finally found religion!"

<shakes head/smiles> It's a very interesting world..

[pepperjack]

Here's a good explanation: The words "god, devil" etc, are part of the English lexicon and are not always religious. Should an atheist, after stubbing his/her toe, yell out, "Oh my nothing", instead of "oh my god?" ...or how about swearing, "Nothing damit"

God and Devil can mean many things to many people and the use of those words in speech and writing, is NOT an indication of any religious belief or persuasion. The use of such words is called, "colloquialism."

Thank God, I'm an Atheist.

Duh! I Know what colloquialism is. For instance, someone in my part of the country saying "crik" when referring to a creek.

[darkeyes]

Thank God, I'm an Atheist.[/SIZE][/FONT]

Glad someone else is babes.. tee hee:tong:

[darkeyes]

Well, it's that time of year again when all the testy atheists come out of the woodwork to challenge nativity scenes, crosses and any other religious symbolism they encounter in public and find offensive. Don't these people have anything better to do than to go out of their way to rain on someone else's parade? Major Scrooges! If they're so enlightened, why can't they adopt an attitude of live & let live?:santa:

Not at all.. most athiests and almost all agnostics I know celebrate Xmas.. maybe not as the time of the birth of Christ but as a time for good will 2 all mankind in keeping with the message that Christians like to spread.. there nowt wrong with it.. we celebrate Xmas at home and have a ball, more to do with giving than receiving and we preach a message of love.. its a part of our culture and if we dont believe in God we can be extra specially nice to others for a few days a year..

Most athiests and agnostics celebrate Xmas similarly in this country..and let those that believe do their thing.. not all the Scrooges and humbugs are athiests lemme say... spend Xmas with the Wee Frees and some their Christian Churches and sects... how they "celebrate" Xmas isnt humbug or Scroogie in the least alrthough some would say so and do..... but born out of belief.. a bit more like Xmas was celebrated in Scotland and elsewhere b4 the Victorians grabbed it and made it showy and fun (and outrageously expensive)..

Nope.. we like a good time like ne1 else... and the round of fun and parties over the Xmas and new Year period certainly brightens up midwinter.. Xmas party pooper?? Not me hun.. never in mill years... an not 2 many athiests I can think of eitha!!!!

[jamieknyc]

Not at all.. most athiests and almost all agnostics I know celebrate Xmas.. maybe not as the time of the birth of Christ but as a time for good will 2 all mankind in keeping with the message that Christians like to spread.. there nowt wrong with it.. we celebrate Xmas at home and have a ball, more to do with giving than receiving and we preach a message of love.. its a part of our culture and if we dont believe in God we can be extra specially nice to others for a few days a year..

Most athiests and agnostics celebrate Xmas similarly in this country..and let those that believe do their thing.. not all the Scrooges and humbugs are athiests lemme say... spend Xmas with the Wee Frees and some their Christian Churches and sects... how they "celebrate" Xmas isnt humbug or Scroogie in the least alrthough some would say so and do..... but born out of belief.. a bit more like Xmas was celebrated in Scotland and elsewhere b4 the Victorians grabbed it and made it showy and fun (and outrageously expensive)..

Nope.. we like a good time like ne1 else... and the round of fun and parties over the Xmas and new Year period certainly brightens up midwinter.. Xmas party pooper?? Not me hun.. never in mill years... an not 2 many athiests I can think of eitha!!!!

In the United States, where unlike Britain there is separation of church and state, the holiday season brings out court challenges to Christmas displays. In many places, the fear of such litigation has resulted in neutering 'holiday displays' (another of those only-in-America terms) to the point where Christians object that they are being denied freedom of religion. Another of those only-in-America things that comes out this time of year is litigation by Jewish groups, mainly Chabad-Lubavitch, demanding equal rights to put up a menorah alongside the Christmas displays.

[darkeyes]

In the United States, where unlike Britain there is separation of church and state, the holiday season brings out court challenges to Christmas displays. In many places, the fear of such litigation has resulted in neutering 'holiday displays' (another of those only-in-America terms) to the point where Christians object that they are being denied freedom of religion. Another of those only-in-America things that comes out this time of year is litigation by Jewish groups, mainly Chabad-Lubavitch, demanding equal rights to put up a menorah alongside the Christmas displays.

Funny ole situation secularism in the UK.. there is separation of church and state even although England has the Church of England as its established church, Scotland the Church of Scotland, and Wales has no established church.. neither does Northern Ireland and most of the larger churches there are part of all Ireland organisations .. there is no state religion recognised as the official religion of the United Kingdom.. so in a sense the UK is a secular state, since no religion or denomination of any religion is recognised as the state religion.. but two countries of that state, do have established religions. Mostly, people in the UK think of the state as secular and it feels secular but in reality, only the two smallest parts of the UK are.. so is the UK secular or not? Interesting question...

[æonpax]

Despite all the evidence to the contrary, there are those in the US that are convinced that America was founded as a Christian nation and will go so far as even to re-write US history. Whatever.



http://i.imgur.com/adiLQ.jpg

[jamieknyc]

Funny ole situation secularism in the UK.. there is separation of church and state even although England has the Church of England as its established church, Scotland the Church of Scotland, and Wales has no established church.. neither does Northern Ireland and most of the larger churches there are part of all Ireland organisations .. there is no state religion recognised as the official religion of the United Kingdom.. so in a sense the UK is a secular state, since no religion or denomination of any religion is recognised as the state religion.. but two countries of that state, do have established religions. Mostly, people in the UK think of the state as secular and it feels secular but in reality, only the two smallest parts of the UK are.. so is the UK secular or not? Interesting question...

In the United States, the litigation concerns the clause of the First Amendment that bars establishment of religion, which the courts have read (for the purposes we are talking about) as prohibiting the use of government property for religious holiday displays. Christmas trees and lights have been held permissible, but overtly religious displays such as creches have been banned. Britain has no equivalent of the American establishment clause.

[jamieknyc]

Despite all the evidence to the contrary, there are those in the US that are convinced that America was founded as a Christian nation and will go so far as even to re-write US history. Whatever.



http://i.imgur.com/adiLQ.jpg

The New England Puritans certainly intended that, and their form of government was set up accordingly. It was not until much later that the Crown took away the political power of the New England church.

[elian]

Many of the founders of this country were Deists and at least four US presidents were Unitarian..back then I think that mostly meant that they still believed in God, but they didn't believe in the Trinity.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unitarianism

They didn't say you couldn't have religious belief, but they didn't want the church to have direct power in the federal government. I think some of them probably remembered the historic way the church was intertwined with the way English government was conducted.

[jamieknyc]

Many of the founders of this country were Deists and at least four US presidents were Unitarian..back then I think that mostly meant that they still believed in God, but they didn't believe in the Trinity.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unitarianism

They didn't say you couldn't have religious belief, but they didn't want the church to have direct power in the federal government. I think some of them probably remembered the historic way the church was intertwined with the way English government was conducted.

In the age of the Founding Fathers atheism wasn't a factor, because there were no atheists. Deists were not atheists.

When Jefferson first used the term 'separation of church and state' in his letter to the Danbury Baptist congregation, he meant what we would call freedom of religion, or more specifically, that the state could not outlaw the Baptist faith. The modern sense of the term was invented in the mid- nineteenth century, when Catholics started coming to the United States in large numbers. Up to the 1840s religious schools of all faiths were supported by the taxpayers, as they are today in Britain, Canada and most other countries. Separation of church and state in the modern sense was invented in that age because Protestant Americans violently objected to their taxes going to support Catholic schools.

[darkeyes]

Had me hands and face smacked Jamie by she of the sexy bootie.. the Kirk is not an established church, even although sometimes it is described as such... evidently it was disestablshed in 1920 something substantially at its own instigation since it had never accepted its position as an established religion.. so since establishment of one church exists for only one country out of 4 in this little union of ours, are we secular or are we not.. as a state that is... and as the Church of England is absolutely subservient to the British state, the water becomes even more muddy as to just what te UK is vis a vis religion..

Btw.. the British state does not support any religion with taxpayers money although there are CofE and RC schools paid for out of the education budgets of the the constituent parts of the UK which u quite rightly point out... whether this can be considered appropriate and purely educational is arguable... provision exists in law for the establshment of schools for other religions within the state education budgets, but very few Islamic Schools for instance exist, and so far as I am aware Jewish schools within the state sector are unknown.. the overwhelming majority of state schools however are non-denominational.

[pepperjack]

Not at all.. most athiests and almost all agnostics I know celebrate Xmas.. maybe not as the time of the birth of Christ but as a time for good will 2 all mankind in keeping with the message that Christians like to spread.. there nowt wrong with it.. we celebrate Xmas at home and have a ball, more to do with giving than receiving and we preach a message of love.. its a part of our culture and if we dont believe in God we can be extra specially nice to others for a few days a year..

Most athiests and agnostics celebrate Xmas similarly in this country..and let those that believe do their thing.. not all the Scrooges and humbugs are athiests lemme say... spend Xmas with the Wee Frees and some their Christian Churches and sects... how they "celebrate" Xmas isnt humbug or Scroogie in the least alrthough some would say so and do..... but born out of belief.. a bit more like Xmas was celebrated in Scotland and elsewhere b4 the Victorians grabbed it and made it showy and fun (and outrageously expensive)..

Nope.. we like a good time like ne1 else... and the round of fun and parties over the Xmas and new Year period certainly brightens up midwinter.. Xmas party pooper?? Not me hun.. never in mill years... an not 2 many athiests I can think of eitha!!!!

I had you pegged as a real party animal.:smilies15

[jem_is_bi]

Ok, here we go again! Since you're "not into any religion," why are you making a reference to " the devil is in the details."?:rolleyes:

Your right, I do not believe anything about the reality of a devil. Rather, that is a common reply that means what looks good is not so good when you get into the details of what is really required.

[pepperjack]

Your right, I do not believe anything about the reality of a devil. Rather, that is a common reply that means what looks good is not so good when you get into the details of what is really required.

I know what it means; like, shit happens or, whatever.

[wiccanking]

I'm wiccan and I'm also a witch and the coven I'm a member of they don't care what my sexual preference is

[pepperjack]

I'm wiccan and I'm also a witch and the coven I'm a member of they don't care what my sexual preference is

So, I guess u know ur broom is part of the world's oldest airline.:bigrin:

[darkeyes]

In the age of the Founding Fathers atheism wasn't a factor, because there were no atheists. Deists were not atheists.



"All children are born Atheists; they have no idea of God."

Paul Henri Thiery, Baron d'Holbach
1772

Not quite true Jamie, but western athiesm did not begin in earnest until the Enlightenment, a very 18th century event where everything was questioned. There have always been athiests although it was the following century before they existed in large numbers.

http://www.investigatingatheism.info/whoswhoeighteenth.html

..and elsewhere are not Taoism, Confuscionism and Buddhism athiest "religions"?

I am prepared to accept that there may not have been many athiests in the US of the late 18th century as there were few in Europe.. but not that there were none.

[DuckiesDarling]

http://main.bisexual.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=3657&d=1282769124

[elian]

I just find it interesting to learn a little about what people believe..I personally believe that religion ought to be inclusive, not exclusive so I don't think there is one set path..

As a matter of fact you all forgot to mention that even if you don't believe in any supernatural force there are the laws of nature that STILL guide people toward the same ends..provided that we don't shield ourselves too much with our "technology" and egotistical attitudes.

When technology ceases to be more than just a trumped up hood ornament or status symbol THEN it might actually be useful. By no means should we forgo scientific endeavor and become ignorant of our responsibilities but what really matters is the people, not the technology. In a way pursuing discovery IS healthy for people. It's only when we take things to extremes do we seem to become unbalanced...(duh)

[darkeyes]

As a matter of fact you all forgot to mention that even if you don't believe in any supernatural force there are the laws of nature that STILL guide people toward the same ends..


Well.. the same end, Elian.. what comes after is anyone's guess.. ;)

[jamieknyc]

Had me hands and face smacked Jamie by she of the sexy bootie.. the Kirk is not an established church, even although sometimes it is described as such... evidently it was disestablshed in 1920 something substantially at its own instigation since it had never accepted its position as an established religion.. so since establishment of one church exists for only one country out of 4 in this little union of ours, are we secular or are we not.. as a state that is... and as the Church of England is absolutely subservient to the British state, the water becomes even more muddy as to just what te UK is vis a vis religion..

Btw.. the British state does not support any religion with taxpayers money although there are CofE and RC schools paid for out of the education budgets of the the constituent parts of the UK which u quite rightly point out... whether this can be considered appropriate and purely educational is arguable... provision exists in law for the establshment of schools for other religions within the state education budgets, but very few Islamic Schools for instance exist, and so far as I am aware Jewish schools within the state sector are unknown.. the overwhelming majority of state schools however are non-denominational.

In the British Jewish community, there is a government-appointed chief rabbinate and an officially-recognized Board of Deputies, and also independent organizations. Most of the independent organizations are Hasidim and other so-called 'ultra-orthodox' who don't recognize the authority of a government-appointed chief rabbinate.

The significant difference between Britain and the United States, though, is that in the United States there is a judicially-created constitutional prohibition against the use of public property or state funds for religious purposes. There are about 4 million stduents in religious schools in the United States, of whom slightly more than half are in Catholic schools. Those are entirely funded from private sources, with some limited exceptions for non-educational services such as lunches and school buses that are paid for by the state.

Most court cases, though, do not have to do with direct state funding for any religious purpose. Usually it has to do with the use of federal, state or municipal property by some private religious organization, such as a Bible Club seeking to use a school auditorium for an after-hours youth-group meeting. The Christmas season always brings out a spate of lawsuits claiming that the Christmas tree in front of the town hall or the firehouse is the use of government property for the support of religion.

[jamieknyc]

"All children are born Atheists; they have no idea of God."

Paul Henri Thiery, Baron d'Holbach
1772

Not quite true Jamie, but western athiesm did not begin in earnest until the Enlightenment, a very 18th century event where everything was questioned. There have always been athiests although it was the following century before they existed in large numbers.

http://www.investigatingatheism.info/whoswhoeighteenth.html

..and elsewhere are not Taoism, Confuscionism and Buddhism athiest "religions"?

I am prepared to accept that there may not have been many athiests in the US of the late 18th century as there were few in Europe.. but not that there were none.

Let me rephrase it. Atheism of course existed since the beginning of time, but it was a lunatic-fringe belief until the later part of the nineteenth century.

[darkeyes]

Let me rephrase it. Atheism of course existed since the beginning of time, but it was a lunatic-fringe belief until the later part of the nineteenth century.

..am not sure I would accept that it was a lunatic fringe belief, Jamie.. but u wouldnt expect me to say other... although the religious establishment of the day certainly considered it so... some still do... but thats by the by... once upon a time, Christianity itself was considered just so in reality.. and even Judaism and Islam.. certainly they were at various times considered dangerous and worthy of attempts at total destruction and erradication.. all still are by some...

[*pan*]

hi, i find that my bisexuality fits perfectly into my religion, i am a wiccan, druid and priest to the goddess. sex is sex and natural. get over it people. i never seen a country more obsessed with it's restrictions, laws and wanting to condem things pertaining to sex then in americia. must be that puritan mentality left over from the 16th century. lol and this is my :2cents: to religion :eek: :flag4:

[jamieknyc]

..am not sure I would accept that it was a lunatic fringe belief, Jamie.. but u wouldnt expect me to say other... although the religious establishment of the day certainly considered it so... some still do... but thats by the by... once upon a time, Christianity itself was considered just so in reality.. and even Judaism and Islam.. certainly they were at various times considered dangerous and worthy of attempts at total destruction and erradication.. all still are by some...

There were some atheists in the eighteenth century, but they were mostly small fry in the Enlightenment. Atheism in the modern sense started with some radical groups in the French Revolution, but it was really Marxism that made it into a major idea.

[drugstore cowboy]

I doubt that you know any Orthodox or Hasidic Jews. I know a great number of both, and they don't get involved with what anyone outside their own community does.

Actually yes I have met and do know Orthodox and even Hasidic Jews, they are very homophobic and not for LGBT people or our rights.

Even reform Jews will claim that they are not homophobic and for LGBT rights but then when they think nobody is listening they'll say things against gays, lesbians, bisexuals, and trans people, and they are not for same gender marriage or our rights.

[jem_is_bi]

I know what it means; like, shit happens or, whatever.

I wish all the best for you and hope you and your family have a wonderful Christmas.

[elian]

It is easy to imagine all sorts of derogatory things about someone if you don't get to know them personally...once you walk in someone else's shoes and get to know them, then it may become harder to treat them stereotypically..at least I can hope so - otherwise there really IS no hope for the peace that we all preach about.

[pepperjack]

It is easy to imagine all sorts of derogatory things about someone if you don't get to know them personally...once you walk in someone else's shoes and get to know them, then it may become harder to treat them stereotypically..at least I can hope so - otherwise there really IS no hope for the peace that we all preach about.

This quote accompanies a beautiful painting of a rugged, windblown,Native American,which hangs above my dining table: " May your moccasins leave tracks on many mounds of worth, and walk with braves of every tribe, who live in peace on earth."

[pepperjack]

I wish all the best for you and hope you and your family have a wonderful Christmas.

No family left; all alone in the world,but I appreciate your Christmas sentiment. I will hopefully have a nice day;So far, it looks that way. Wishing you the same; hope you did not misinterpret my post.

[pepperjack]

ROMNEY/ TEBOW: Been watching these 2 with great interest! They have so much in common;Winners! They're steadfast, consistent, courageous; a presidential candidate & sports hero with genuine integrity, qualities America is starving for.

[jem_is_bi]

No family left; all alone in the world,but I appreciate your Christmas sentiment. I will hopefully have a nice day;So far, it looks that way. Wishing you the same; hope you did not misinterpret my post.

I have lots of family, Christmas is an important time to renew family ties. My dad and one uncle are still alive from the previous generation, otherwise I am the oldest of 6 in my family. I wish you still had family to share Christmas with you. I hope you have an extra nice day.